Skip to main content

Duesenberg SJ La Grand Phaeton questions from a newbie

  • silverghost
  • Offline
  • Premium Member
  • Registered
More
05 Jun 2013 14:12 #25342 by silverghost
Bob~~
There was a second Sea Dart prototype displayed at the Naval Supply Depot in North East Philadelphia .
It had a checkerboard pattern painted on part of it's tail.

That plane disappeared decades ago.

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. BRAD HUNTER Huntingdon Valley Pa/Ocean City NJ 215 947 4676 Engineer & RE Developer Brass & Classic Auto, Antique Boat, Mechanical Automatic Music Machine, & Jukebox Collector

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Bob Roller
  • Offline
  • Premium Member
  • Registered
More
01 Jun 2013 20:44 #25308 by Bob Roller
Replied by Bob Roller on topic Astronauts etc.
The day after the moon landing I met a member of the Flat Earth Society that said it was a movie and never happened. To think that these peope live among us and reproduce and worst of all VOTE.

Bob Roller

Bob Roller

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • silverghost
  • Offline
  • Premium Member
  • Registered
More
31 May 2013 15:10 #25293 by silverghost

Thomas Wilcock wrote: In 2006 I visited a friend, Kurt Ritthaler in Huntington Valley and he took me to the museum and to Steve Pitcairn's airfield and workshop/hangar. Steve was building a replica biplane. I forget what make it was. One of his autogiros and a Pitcairn Mailwing and antique motorcycles were among the many interesting things to see there. Steve gave me a copy of his book, "Legacy of Wings" The Harold Pitcairn Story. It was a memorable weekend. So much history to absorb. Tom


Hi Thomas~~~

Sadly Steve Pitcairn passed-away on 4-2-2008~~

He was a super guy who also once lived just a half mile from my home.
I met him locally in H~V & Bryn Athen Pa on at least two dozen occasions.

His late Father Harold Pitcairn once bought & owned a new Duesenberg model "J" ~~~a Murphy clearvision sedan.

The car was said to have had a dual carb intake manifold with two very large Winfield perfomance carburators ! ?
I often wonder if Harold himself had this unique carb/intake set-up added after delivery ?

Sorry~~~~
The "J" number escapes me for the moment ?
{ Edit: J 308 ~~ 2337 }

duesey186.com/Datasheets/Model_J ... rm2337.htm

Shortly before Steve's passing I discovered that his father Harold's model "J" was up for sale.
Immediately I called Steve with this great news as Steve had often wondered who had owned his Father's former Duesenberg auto~~~~
His family had a number of old photos of his father with this great auto.

Steve had alredy purhased ten years prior one of his late father's Packards which is now on display at one of Pitcairn family Mansion estates ~~~now used as a local Museum complex ~~

Steve had me contact the ower and ask all the details on the car~~~
I called Steve back, gave him the owner's contact information, car details, and current asking price.

Steve was thrilled to say the very least, and immediatly said that he was going to BUY the Duesenberg and donate it to the Bryn Athen Cairnwood/Glencairn twin Mansions museum collections~~~~

Sadly this was not to be ~~~
as Steve sadly passed-away just shortly thereafter ~~~~

BRAD~~~

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. BRAD HUNTER Huntingdon Valley Pa/Ocean City NJ 215 947 4676 Engineer & RE Developer Brass & Classic Auto, Antique Boat, Mechanical Automatic Music Machine, & Jukebox Collector

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • BSteinIPMS
  • Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Junior Member
  • Registered
More
31 May 2013 14:43 #25291 by BSteinIPMS
Hi Brad,

Well, now this is really getting scary!

My older brother went to Drexel as a Physics major for two years before he transferred over to Penn for Psyche to become a psychologist.

My Dad was also an electrical & electronic engineer. He worked at Leeds & Northrup on the timing controls for the atom bomb, or so I was told.

Do I remember the Convair F2Y Sea Dart? Here's a shot I took in 1963 when I hopped the fence at Willow Grove NAS to photograph all the warbirds parked there. (Didn't get caught) I had my mother's square-format Kodak and I though if I held the camera diagonally I could get closer to the aircraft. This was long before I was able to buy my first 35mm film camera.



The lineup of WWII aircraft has grown smaller: the Japanese A6M5 Zero was removed and sent to the NASM, Smithsonian for refurbishment & display. Same for the P-40 and (I believe) the Kawanishi N1K1 Kyofu (Rex).

I wonder if we're twin brothers of different mothers? (grin)
Cheers!
--Bob

silverghost wrote: In 1975 I again met Buzz at Drexel University where I was attending engineering school.

Dad was an electrical/electronics engineer and dad later helped to re-design the faulty electrical system & add specially designed sealed switches on the Apollo capsule's total re-design .
BOB~~~
Do you also remember the blue Convair F2Y Sea Dart Navy "X" test fighter with water ski float pontoons that was once at the North East Philadelphia Naval Supply Depot inside the fence on display ?
It is now on site at the Willow Grove NAS Naval flight museum !
It was designed to land & take-off on water~~~
It was a mach 1 + supersonic delta wing seaplane fighter with 4 20MM cannons.
It was designed to replace the need for aircraft carriers.
Up to this point in time 1948-51 the US Navy carriers could only launch & capture subsonic small jet aircraft .
Their ctapults were & arresting gear was not powerfull enough~~~and the existing carrier's decks were way too short.
I believe only 4 prototype "X" F2Y examples were ever built & tested ?
My Dad worked on this then "Top Secret" "X" plane also !
It was not a success as the sucked-in saltwater ruined the jet engine's turbine blades~~~
Fresh water use was successful however !

BRAD~~~

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Thomas Wilcock
  • Offline
  • Senior Member
  • Registered
More
31 May 2013 11:41 #25286 by Thomas Wilcock
Replied by Thomas Wilcock on topic Duesenberg SJ La Grand Phaeton questions from a newbie
In 2006 I visited a friend, Kurt Ritthaler in Huntington Valley and he took me to the museum and to Steve Pitcairn's airfield and workshop/hangar. Steve was building a replica biplane. I forget what make it was. One of his autogiros and a Pitcairn Mailwing and antique motorcycles were among the many interesting things to see there. Steve gave me a copy of his book, "Legacy of Wings" The Harold Pitcairn Story. It was a memorable weekend. So much history to absorb. Tom

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • silverghost
  • Offline
  • Premium Member
  • Registered
More
30 May 2013 22:23 #25277 by silverghost
Talking about the Johnsville Naval Air Development & Warfare Center~~~

One day in the 60s Dad took me to Johnsville~~~
He did quite a bit of "Classified Engineering" work for the Navy ~~~
When his boss was AWOL he & his guys had us both take a ride in the giant human flight test centrifuge there at 4-5 "Gs"

This giant human flight test centrifuge was the largest & fastest centrifuge in the world !!!

ALL of the original Mercury 7 , Gemini. & Apollo Saturn V astronauts trained in this exact same test centrifuge !

In the movie "The Right Stuff" the actors are seen in a much smaller centrifuge that seems to be 1/3 the size of the centrifuge at Johnsville !

Johnsville & the centrifuge is now a museum attraction~~~

One day in 1968 Dad again took me to meet a guy named Buzz Aldrin~~~
At the time I wondered why was I taken up to Johnsville just to meet this guy named Buzz ???

I half knew who he was~~~
He was in the Apollo astronaut program~

BUT~~~

I did not know it at the time~~~and Dad was not allowed to say anything~~~ but Buzz had just been chosen for the famous Apollo 11 first USA flight to land men on the moon !

Dad later told me that the entire Apollo program was accelerated in 1968 because the US wanted to beat the Soviets to the first moon landing~~~
It was the feared that the Soviets with their giant N-1 moon rocket might actually beat us to the first moon landing.
We then took "A Giant Leap" foreward and decided to skip many steps ahead and go for broke with the Apollo 11 mission !

I was later very shocked to find that Buzz was only just one year later after meeting him named as a crew member on the Apollo 11 moon landing mission in 1969 and he then later actually landed & walked on the moon with his buddy astronaut and Eagle lander pilot & commander Neil Armstrong ~~~

I watched in awe the TV coverage of the landing & first moon walk at our Ocean City NJ summer seashore vacation home on an old 19" Black & White Admiral portable TV !

I was still then at that time stunned that I had only just met Buzz Aldrin one year earlier before~~~And now here he was, along with Neil Armstrong , actually landing & walking on the moon while I was watching it all live on TV in July 1969 !

WOW ~~~

The first USA crew to land on the moon !

BUZZ ALDRIN is a very cool guy indeed ! ! !

In 1975 I again met Buzz at Drexel University where I was attending engineering school.
I shook his hand again, after his brief talk, and told him of our meeting which he actally remembered at Johnsville in 1968 !
He remembered my Father very fondly !
He actually told me a short story about my Dad and the Apollo program!
Dad was brought-in to consult on the tragic Apollo 1 fire that killed the crew of three astronauts on launch pad #19 during a full-up dressed crew pressure test.
NASA sought -out all the brightest minds at this time that they could find in US industry.
Dad was an electrical/electronics engineer and dad later helped to re-design the faulty electrical system & add specially designed sealed switches on the Apollo capsule's total re-design . A stray electrical spark had caused the tragic fire in a 100% pure oxygen environment.

Up to now~~~
That's my Only real close-up brush with living USA history !

BOB~~~
Do you also remember the blue Convair F2Y Sea Dart Navy "X" test fighter with water ski float pontoons that was once at the North East Philadelphia Naval Supply Depot inside the fence on display ?
It is now on site at the Willow Grove NAS Naval flight museum !
It was designed to land & take-off on water~~~
It was a mach 1 + supersonic delta wing seaplane fighter with 4 20MM cannons.
It was designed to replace the need for aircraft carriers.
Up to this point in time 1948-51 the US Navy carriers could only launch & capture subsonic small jet aircraft .
Their ctapults were & arresting gear was not powerfull enough~~~and the existing carrier's decks were way too short.
I believe only 4 prototype "X" F2Y examples were ever built & tested ?
My Dad worked on this then "Top Secret" "X" plane also !
It was not a success as the sucked-in saltwater ruined the jet engine's turbine blades~~~
Fresh water use was successful however !

BRAD~~~

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. BRAD HUNTER Huntingdon Valley Pa/Ocean City NJ 215 947 4676 Engineer & RE Developer Brass & Classic Auto, Antique Boat, Mechanical Automatic Music Machine, & Jukebox Collector

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • silverghost
  • Offline
  • Premium Member
  • Registered
More
30 May 2013 22:05 #25276 by silverghost
WoW BOB ! ! !
This IS really strange~~~
Are you my long lost cousin ?

That IS the EXACT VERY SAME B-26 Bomber I used to climb through as a young kid !
I remember my Dad boosting me up to that nose gear ladder !
There are a number of photos of it online at the Ocean city Airport both in B&W +color.
A final photo of it is posted on the Warbirds website painted tan in civillian dress !
It was later sold & fixed-up and lived yet another life as a civillian transport & corp. plane !
Is is said to still exist in ruins out west somewhere !

There are also two F-8 Cruader fighters on static display at Willow Grove NAS today.

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. BRAD HUNTER Huntingdon Valley Pa/Ocean City NJ 215 947 4676 Engineer & RE Developer Brass & Classic Auto, Antique Boat, Mechanical Automatic Music Machine, & Jukebox Collector

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • BSteinIPMS
  • Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Junior Member
  • Registered
More
30 May 2013 20:38 #25273 by BSteinIPMS
I first went to Agusta school at that old facility in 1985, perhaps a year or two before the new one was built across the field.

I knew Johnsville Naval Air Development Center was closed - the venue for many a great airshow I attended as a lad, but I wasn't aware Willow Grove NAS had closed. Watching the F-8 Crusaders taxi out and launch was part of my childhood inspiration, much like the photos in Dennis Adler's Duesenberg book.

I was aware of the Pitcairn autogyro factory and the early history surrounding it, but I've never seen one outside of a museum.

Most of the airshow stars you mention were my heroes when younger - many still are!....and all are familiar names.

More from the "small world" department: here's the B-26 you mention. I took this in July 1963 at Clark Field, Ocean City, NJ, just prior to climbing all through it via the nose wheel well access ladder. This is getting just too uncanny!
Cheers!
--Bob

silverghost wrote: BOB~

My family bought part of the old Agusta Chopper facility~~~That is where the NE Jet Center is now located !
The Willow Grove NAS is now closed !
I used to watch the national guard fly the old P-3 subchasers A 10s tank-busters , F4 phantoms, syhawks, F-14s from the field there !
Many of the old WW II warbirds from the USA , Japan, and Germany are still there as there is a new flight museum on this property !
The German ME 262 once on static outdoor display was restored to airworthy condition some years back !
It is now in the New flight museum buildilding !
That base was once home to the Pitcharyn Airwing early armail operation & later Autogyro operation.
Pitcaryn bought the rights to produce the Pitcaryn Autogyro on this large property.
M Father used to see the Autogyros land on various fields around our home !
They used to land on both Pitcaryn's mansions "Glencaryn" & "Carynwood" just a stone's throw away from my home here !
Do a google search for these fantatic mansions !

I have poked around ALL those old warbirds cle-up At Wilow Grove Naval Air Station !
I also was inside a yellow visiting B-17 at several airshows here over the years.

Once I once flew along "backseat" with the Navy Blue Angles in an F-4 Phantom when I worked as video camera operator/ reporter locally in the area at a local TV station CH 48~~~I still have photos & old viedo of that very flight !
Also saw the Air Force Thunderbirds flying T-38 s & later F-16s there.
Also saw & met world famous stuntpilot Bob Hoover and saw his fantastic P-51 "Old Yeller" and his former old silver P-51-D flying spectacular stunts before some ground crew kid overfilled her oxygen tank and blew It & himself UP ! Bob is now in his 90s !

Bob also demomstrated his famous Rockwell Aerocommander and it's dead stick landing there !
Art Scholl also flew his chipmumk stuntplane there.
He while inverted cut a ribbon only thirty feet from the ground !
He ended his stunt routine with a low level flyby while standing with one leg outside standing on the aircraft's wing !
I met Art & his companion stunt flyer dog Aileron there in the 1970s sadly just before he was tragically killed filming for the Tom Cruise movie "Top Gun"

In Ocean City NJ in the 60s-70s there was a surpluss WW II B-26 on display that we used to climb through !
It was later bought, rebuilt & reconfigured as a corp transport plane. There was also an Air Forse T-33 trainer jet there that was on static display~~~sadly it was scrapped in the late 70s.
I have the two wing fuel tank top fill caps that I was given just before it was hauled to the scrapper !

At North East there is Philly lawyer Jim Beasley with his Late Father's two -three P-51 fighter Mustangs & a MIG 15 based here., A Stearman the famous Canibal Queen that a famous book was written about with her former owner's cross county air adventures. It is now an area ride plane
Aviation Lawyer Arthur Wolk once based his early Navy jet fighter at NE before a fuel delivery failure caused it to crash.
Arthur luckily walked away~~~
The plane was wrecked & cobbled back together and is now on static outdoor display At Willow Grove NAS.

My uncle who owns & operates the FBO has a 10 passenger all glass cockpit instrument Beechcraft Super King Air turboprp , Navajo, and Piper Cherokee Warrier he owns also based there !

BRAD~

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • silverghost
  • Offline
  • Premium Member
  • Registered
More
30 May 2013 19:44 #25270 by silverghost
BOB~

My family bought part of the old Agusta Chopper facility~~~That is where the NE Jet Center is now located !
The Willow Grove NAS is now closed !
I used to watch the national guard fly the old P-3 subchasers A 10s tank-busters , F4 phantoms, syhawks, F-14s from the field there !
Many of the old WW II warbirds from the USA , Japan, and Germany are still there as there is a new flight museum on this property !
The German ME 262 once on static outdoor display was restored to airworthy condition some years back !
It is now in the New flight museum buildilding !
That base was once home to the Pitchairn Airwing early armail operation & later Autogyro operation.
Pitcairn bought the rights to produce the Pitcairn Autogyro on this large property.
M Father used to see the Autogyros land on various fields around our home !
They used to land on both Pitcairn's mansions "Glencaryn" & "Carynwood" just a stone's throw away from my home here !
Do a google search for these fantatic mansions !

I have poked around ALL those old warbirds cle-up At Wilow Grove Naval Air Station !
I also was inside a yellow visiting B-17 at several airshows here over the years.

Once I once flew along "backseat" with the Navy Blue Angles in an F-4 Phantom when I worked as video camera operator/ reporter locally in the area at a local TV station CH 48~~~I still have photos & old viedo of that very flight !
Also saw the Air Force Thunderbirds flying T-38 s & later F-16s there.
Also saw & met world famous stuntpilot Bob Hoover and saw his fantastic P-51 "Old Yeller" and his former old silver P-51-D flying spectacular stunts before some ground crew kid overfilled her oxygen tank and blew It & himself UP ! Bob is now in his 90s !

Bob also demomstrated his famous Rockwell Aerocommander and it's dead stick landing there !
Art Scholl also flew his chipmumk stuntplane there.
He while inverted cut a ribbon only thirty feet from the ground !
He ended his stunt routine with a low level flyby while standing with one leg outside standing on the aircraft's wing !
I met Art & his companion stunt flyer dog Aileron there in the 1970s sadly just before he was tragically killed filming for the Tom Cruise movie "Top Gun"

In Ocean City NJ in the 60s-70s there was a surpluss WW II B-26 on display that we used to climb through !
It was later bought, rebuilt & reconfigured as a corp transport plane. There was also an Air Forse T-33 trainer jet there that was on static display~~~sadly it was scrapped in the late 70s.
I have the two wing fuel tank top fill caps that I was given just before it was hauled to the scrapper !

At North East there is Philly lawyer Jim Beasley with his Late Father's two -three P-51 fighter Mustangs & a MIG 15 based here., A Stearman the famous Canibal Queen that a famous book was written about with her former owner's cross county air adventures. It is now an area ride plane
Aviation Lawyer Arthur Wolk once based his early Navy jet fighter at NE before a fuel delivery failure caused it to crash.
Arthur luckily walked away~~~
The plane was wrecked & cobbled back together and is now on static outdoor display At Willow Grove NAS.

My uncle who owns & operates the FBO has a 10 passenger all glass cockpit instrument Beechcraft Super King Air turboprp , Navajo, and Piper Cherokee Warrier he owns also based there !

BRAD~

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. BRAD HUNTER Huntingdon Valley Pa/Ocean City NJ 215 947 4676 Engineer & RE Developer Brass & Classic Auto, Antique Boat, Mechanical Automatic Music Machine, & Jukebox Collector

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • BSteinIPMS
  • Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Junior Member
  • Registered
More
30 May 2013 19:01 #25267 by BSteinIPMS
Hi Brad,

I spoke (and had an e-mail conversation) with Jon Bill, the archivist at the ACD Museum who tells me much the same as you have. The one LeBaron (S)J in Maroon & Red illustrated in their museum book "It's a Duesy!" is no longer there, having been on loan, and yes, it used to be painted blue & red.

Jon had this to say:

"Hello Bob,

I think we can be of some assistance in your project. I?ll answer your questions first:

1. The Duesenberg in our booklet is a 1929 model. The external exhaust pipes and a supercharger were added later, either by the factory or a dealer.

2. The Duesenberg in our booklet has a body built by LeBaron. The sweep panel design varies slightly between the LeBaron and LaGrande bodies, i.e. the ?sweep? on the LaGrande-built bodies extends further back into the door.

When the Duesenberg LeBaron was on exhibit here several years ago it was the subject of an array of photographs taken by the late Nicky Wright, the noted professional automotive photographer. We have nine different photos in our collection: 1) right rear ? view 2) engine (left side) 3) exhaust side of hood 4) interior showing dashboard & front seat 5) right front ? view 6) spotlight & cowl lamp detail 7) running board and rear fender detail. Eight) door handle detail 9) taillamp & trunk detail. These 10x8 color photos are available from our archives department for $15.00 each (10% discount for museum members).

Regards,
Jon Bill, archivist
Auburn Cord Duesenberg Automobile Museum
1600 South Wayne Street
Auburn, IN 46706"



I've ordered the photos and this is the vehicle I'll copy. This is probably as close to an original Duesenberg as I'm able to get for this modeling project.

More in the "small world department": Having grown up in Elkins Park, I used to ride my bike to Willow Grove Naval Air Station and poke my nose through the fence, just dreaming. I did the same with Northeast Philadelphia Airport. When just a lad, an outfit named Aero Services - a geo-mapping concern - had a very nice PBY Catalina and a B-17 parked there. I was able to crawl through each of them, respectfully, not touching a thing. Never dreamed one day I'd be back many times to attend schools at Agusta Aerospace at Northeast Philadelphia Airport and ferry A-109 helicopters back and forth many times to Minneapolis. I still carry many fond memories of the area. Thanks for the Elkins Park/Huntington Valley history lesson. Love it!

Oh, and my one claim to fame is that I went to Cheltenham High School and Reggie Jackson was in my English class. It's the closest to "famous" as I'll ever get.......grin.

Cheers!
--Bob



silverghost wrote: Hi BOB~

I am Not a Duesenberg model "J" expert by any means~
But I think that the percentage of existing surviving model "J" autos that are exactly 100 % like they were first built when new are possibly only about 1/3 of the total survivors out there today.

You are indeed correct in your conclusions about the many altered model "J" autos.

Other true historans of the model "J" here could posibly pin this 100% originality number down much better than I can ? !

All the other survivors have been altered in some small or larger way or another.
Some have been highly altered over the decades since being first built new.
I know of No other car brand, or model, out there today that has seen so many alterations,, body coachwork, & chassis,engine swaps etc. done over the decades as the great model "J".

Watever you decide to do to build your model project~~~ it will still be fine & correct !

What a small world indeed ~
I do not live very far from the Huntingdon Valley Shopping Center~~~only about three miles, or so~

I also know the Elkins Park area fairly well .
It is still a fairly nice area today !

It was named for the famous Philadelphia Elkins famly who once had a very large Mansion estate there. The Elkins & Widener familys once owned ALL the trolley & railroad transporaton lines and routes in the region. At one time at their peak thay owned 500 miles of commuter trolley, streetcar, & rail tracks.
Much of this very large Elkins estate has been long since torn-down and redeveloped. There are however a few surviving estate service out buildings, gate-houses, stables etc. now converted into private homes .

The Widener family mansion "Lynnewood Hall " still stands sadly abandoned and going slowly downhill today. (Do a google search for more information on the mansion)
I do hope it can still be saved !
It is the largest mansion estate still existing in our area with some 157 rooms ! It is said to be four times the size & floorspace of our White House in washington DC.
It was, & is, still in the top six largest sized private homes ever built in the USA !
It is called the Versailles of the USA !

In high school I dated a young girl who was a member of the Elkins family. They still own & live in a small 50 room "summer cottage" estate called "Albidale" , not very far from my home base here ,where the Elkins family once raised prise jumper, steeplechase , show, and race horses. She was the true "Love of my life" ! She is long since married~~~ I sadly am still very single & still looking !

When I was a kid the Elkins family still held Fox Hunts on this grand estate !
You would not believethe old autos that were once in their ten bay garage with two service pits & diver's quarters
Much of this estate & mansion itself is still intact today !

By the way~~~
Members of my family own & operate the North East Philadelpha Jet Center airport FBO !

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • silverghost
  • Offline
  • Premium Member
  • Registered
More
30 May 2013 16:45 #25258 by silverghost
Hi BOB~

I am Not a Duesenberg model "J" expert by any means~
But I think that the percentage of existing surviving model "J" autos that are exactly 100 % like they were first built when new are possibly only about 1/3 of the total survivors out there today.

You are indeed correct in your conclusions about the many altered model "J" autos.

Other true historans of the model "J" here could posibly pin this 100% originality number down much better than I can ? !

All the other survivors have been altered in some small or larger way or another.
Some have been highly altered over the decades since being first built new.
I know of No other car brand, or model, out there today that has seen so many alterations,, body coachwork, & chassis,engine swaps etc. done over the decades as the great model "J".

Watever you decide to do to build your model project~~~ it will still be fine & correct !

What a small world indeed ~
I do not live very far from the Huntingdon Valley Shopping Center~~~only about three miles, or so~

I also know the Elkins Park area fairly well .
It is still a fairly nice area today !

It was named for the famous Philadelphia Elkins famly who once had a very large Mansion estate there. The Elkins & Widener familys once owned ALL the trolley & railroad transporaton lines and routes in the region. At one time at their peak thay owned 500 miles of commuter trolley, streetcar, & rail tracks.
Much of this very large Elkins estate has been long since torn-down and redeveloped. There are however a few surviving estate service out buildings, gate-houses, stables etc. now converted into private homes .

The Widener family mansion "Lynnewood Hall " still stands sadly abandoned and going slowly downhill today. (Do a google search for more information on the mansion)
I do hope it can still be saved !
It is the largest mansion estate still existing in our area with some 157 rooms ! It is said to be four times the size & floorspace of our White House in washington DC.
It was, & is, still in the top six largest sized private homes ever built in the USA !
It is called the Versailles of the USA !

In high school I dated a young girl who was a member of the Elkins family. They still own & live in a small 50 room "summer cottage" estate called "Albidale" , not very far from my home base here ,where the Elkins family once raised prise jumper, steeplechase , show, and race horses.

When I was a kid the Elkins family still held Fox Hunts on this grand estate !
You would not believethe old autos that were once in their ten bay garage with two service pits & diver's livning quarters.
Much of this estate & the grand mansion "cottage" itself is still intact today !

By the way~~~
I see you are a pilot ~~~
Members of my extended family own, & operate, the North East Philadelpha Jet Center airport FBO !

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. BRAD HUNTER Huntingdon Valley Pa/Ocean City NJ 215 947 4676 Engineer & RE Developer Brass & Classic Auto, Antique Boat, Mechanical Automatic Music Machine, & Jukebox Collector

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • BSteinIPMS
  • Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Junior Member
  • Registered
More
30 May 2013 13:27 #25257 by BSteinIPMS
Thanks Brad,
From what you say here, along with all the reading I've done in the dozen or so books on Duesenberg I have, I come away with the impression that the chassis & engines & bodies & paint were swapped around more than a Hollywood spouse.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. As an aside, I grew up in Elkins Park and used to ride my bike to a very nice hobby shop which used to be in the Huntington Valley shopping center. Small world.

Cheers!
--Bob

silverghost wrote: You must keep in mind that many of these Model "J" autos have been heavily altered since the chassis & engines have first left the factory.
Engines have been swapped & substituted from one "J" number to another chassis.
Intake manifold configurations & carb types have often been changed from updraft to downdraft, and in some cases multiple carbs added etc. & reproduction superchargers & supercharger intake manifold pipe styles were often added much later in the engine's long lifetime.
Duesenberg Model "J" autos have also been subjected to many coachwork body swaps & bodywork alterations during the many decades since first being built new.
The body paint colors on the very exact same car's coachwork may have been changed a half dozen times,or more, over the years also depending on the personal color choice taste of some later owners.

Very few of these cars seem to look exactly like they first left the Duesenberg factory & first body coachbuilder's shop.

Often one sees several photos taken over the many decades of the exact same model "J" # auto and you might well think you are looking at several different cars because of the later changes & alterations a new later owner has made to his own taste to this car.

Keep in mind~~~
A real true model "J" never had pipes comming out of both sides of the hood nor did they ever have V-8 style engines. Only the much later replicar reproductions had chrom flex exhaust pipes on both hood sides.

It is really easy to get confused when looking at photos of these fine model "J" cars
In the end~~~do a bit of online research ~~~then choose what you think the car should really look like from other examples of real surviving autos.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • silverghost
  • Offline
  • Premium Member
  • Registered
More
29 May 2013 20:59 #25250 by silverghost
You must keep in mind that many of these Model "J" autos have been heavily altered since the chassis & engines have first left the factory.
Engines have been swapped & substituted from one "J" number to another chassis.
Intake manifold configurations & carb types have often been changed from updraft to downdraft, and in some cases multiple carbs added etc. & reproduction superchargers & supercharger intake manifold pipe styles were often added much later in the engine's long lifetime.
Duesenberg Model "J" autos have also been subjected to many coachwork body swaps & bodywork alterations during the many decades since first being built new.
The body paint colors on the very exact same car's coachwork may have been changed a half dozen times,or more, over the years also depending on the personal color choice taste of some later owners.

Very few of these cars seem to look exactly like they first left the Duesenberg factory & first body coachbuilder's shop.

Often one sees several photos taken over the many decades of the exact same model "J" # auto and you might well think you are looking at several different cars because of the later changes & alterations a new later owner has made to his own taste to this car.

Keep in mind~~~
A real true model "J" never had pipes comming out of both sides of the hood nor did they ever have V-8 style engines. Only the much later replicar reproductions had chrom flex exhaust pipes on both hood sides.

It is really easy to get confused when looking at photos of these fine model "J" cars
In the end~~~do a bit of online research ~~~then choose what you think the car should really look like from other examples of real surviving autos.

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. BRAD HUNTER Huntingdon Valley Pa/Ocean City NJ 215 947 4676 Engineer & RE Developer Brass & Classic Auto, Antique Boat, Mechanical Automatic Music Machine, & Jukebox Collector

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • BSteinIPMS
  • Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Junior Member
  • Registered
More
29 May 2013 19:02 #25249 by BSteinIPMS
Matt, Ihr Englisch ist sehr gut, viel besser als mein Deutsch!

Thanks for the information; all of it is valuable to me. I appreciate the help and advice of everyone here.

Cheers!
--Bob

landmark wrote:
Hello Bob,

I am sorry my english is not as good as it could/should be.

What I tried to figure out with the door-opening-example (regular vs. suicide) is, that not all DCP of one coachbuilder (La Grande or Le Baron) look the same, there are often details which changes inside the DCP-"Series" of one choachbuilder.

For example two La Grande DCP with different doorhinge-mountings:

1. The Louwman-museum La Grande (J-532) -> Doorhinges in the rear (suicide door) www.duesey2208.com/Datasheets/Mo ... rm2559.htm

2. The Collings-Foundation La Grande (J-261) -> Doorhinges in the front (regular-opening door) www.duesey2208.com/Datasheets/Mo ... rm2283.htm

I am not an expert, who can tell what are the main differences between the La Grande and Le Baron DCP body-designs. But I guess Bob Roller is right with his idea of different sweep-panel sizes and "bow-radius" at the door.

Take a look at the door-panel of that Le Baron DCP www.duesey2208.com/Datasheets/Mo ... rm2336.htm and compare it with the Collings-car. For me it looks different.

Cheers

Matt

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • landmark
  • Offline
  • Junior Member
  • Registered
More
29 May 2013 16:54 #25248 by landmark

BSteinIPMS wrote:
(...)

I've noticed for the first time that the Louwman vehicle has the front door hinges installed on their rear edge, being so-called "suicide" doors, while the LeBaron has all four doors opening in the conventional manner, e.g.: with the hinges on the forward edges of the doors. This is what the Hubley/Gabriel kit has represented, along with the type of trunk I see on LeBaron D-C SP Phaetons. So, it would seem the Hubley kit is mis-labeled: it's a LeBaron rather than a La Grande. Any other opinions out there?

(...)



Hello Bob,

I am sorry my english is not as good as it could/should be.

What I tried to figure out with the door-opening-example (regular vs. suicide) is, that not all DCP of one coachbuilder (La Grande or Le Baron) look the same, there are often details which changes inside the DCP-"Series" of one choachbuilder.

For example two La Grande DCP with different doorhinge-mountings:

1. The Louwman-museum La Grande (J-532) -> Doorhinges in the rear (suicide door) www.duesey2208.com/Datasheets/Mo ... rm2559.htm

2. The Collings-Foundation La Grande (J-261) -> Doorhinges in the front (regular-opening door) www.duesey2208.com/Datasheets/Mo ... rm2283.htm

I am not an expert, who can tell what are the main differences between the La Grande and Le Baron DCP body-designs. But I guess Bob Roller is right with his idea of different sweep-panel sizes and "bow-radius" at the door.

Take a look at the door-panel of that Le Baron DCP www.duesey2208.com/Datasheets/Mo ... rm2336.htm and compare it with the Collings-car. For me it looks different.

Cheers

Matt

Was man besonders gerne tut,
ist selten ganz besonders gut

Wilhelm Busch

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • BSteinIPMS
  • Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Junior Member
  • Registered
More
29 May 2013 15:58 #25247 by BSteinIPMS
Hi Matt,

Thanks for the edifying information. I'm aware of the intake and exhaust sides of the Straight-eight engine, but I confess I was confused by so many photos illustrating four flexible segmented exhaust pipes coming out both sides. Now I understand: V-8 conversions and reproductions. Nice to know!

I've measured the sweep panels on photos of the Louwman La Grande and the LeBaron attributed to Bob Grooters. They seem to have the same curve and depth into the door panel. Thanks to your information I've noticed for the first time that the Louwman vehicle has the front door hinges installed on their rear edge, being so-called "suicide" doors, while the LeBaron has all four doors opening in the conventional manner, e.g.: with the hinges on the forward edges of the doors. This is what the Hubley/Gabriel kit has represented, along with the type of trunk I see on LeBaron D-C SP Phaetons. So, it would seem the Hubley kit is mis-labeled: it's a LeBaron rather than a La Grande. Any other opinions out there?

The best photos I've found (after perusing thousands online while my wife thought I was out cutting the lawn......) are of Bob Grooters' vehicle. This is illustrated on page 164 of Dennis Adler's book "Duesenberg". I'm aware of the many errors found in the book, so I guess I'll have to take the caption of this photo reservedly: it states this is a 1932 (S)J model, chassis #2151, engine J-129. Following the Duesenberg Index on the link you so graciously provided corroborates this, and shows this red/maroon vehicle was at one time painted red/blue. I wonder which is more current?

Cheers!
--Bob

landmark wrote: Hello Bob,

in addition to what Kay and Bob Roller already told:

1. As Kay said; four Pipes on the right side. The Duesenberg J-engine is a straight (inline) eight engine ->right side is the exhaust-side, left side the intake side (no exhaust-pipes there!)
Some "new" replica (fake) cars are V-8 powered and have exhaustpipes on both sides, e.g. the yellow "Duesenberg" in the new Great Gatsby movie is such a replica car (not an original Duesenberg J!)


2. I would guess so, many bodies were restyled/modified in the second half of the thirties (and later) B.t.w. that car is J-532 and was topic in an older posting, here it is: forums.phpstack-1081784-3880776.cloudwaysapps.com/phpbb2/viewto ... cd8550105f


3. As Bob Roller told and the sweep-panel DCPs of each of both companies differ a in some details from car to car e.g. some La Grande DCP have the doorhandles in front and open in front other open (like modern cars) in rear (doorhandles in rear of the door) a.s.o.


I think the complete Model J serie is named by the factory as "Model J" (supercharged or not) the "SJ" designation comes not from the factory. Only some of the very late produced cars were named JN, the N means new (body) style.

On a lot of former uncharged Model J was a supercharger later added.


4. The eight(port) in one manifold on the Collings Foundation car (J-261) is the very rare "Monel" manifold. I think that manifold was mounted on the early (by factory) supercharged Model J before the "Four-Pipe" Exhausts were introduced.

Here you will find a detail picture of such a manifold: www.rmauctions.com/lots/lot.cfm?lot_id=1060491


5. Do you know this site?

duesey2208.com/Datasheets/frmModelJIndex.htm

When you "klick" on a car you will find additional informations and pictures to that car <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: -->


Cheers

Matt

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • BSteinIPMS
  • Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Junior Member
  • Registered
More
29 May 2013 15:43 #25245 by BSteinIPMS
Replied by BSteinIPMS on topic Re: Models of Duesenbergs
Thanks for the helpful information, Bob. I appreciate it very much.
Rough-and-ready measuring of the sweep panels on the Louwman La Grand and Bob Grooters' LeBaron reveals almost, if not the same, dimensions, but I see the former has "suicide" doors on the front whereas the LeBaron has all four door hinges on the front. I'm learning to sharpen my eye, so thanks!

Bob Roller wrote: Actually,all model "J"s are 1929's but are usually dated by the year they were titled and registered for use by the first owner. The superchargers were added after 1931 and I have an ad for July 1932 for a supercharged
engine from Vanity Fair.(I think)
I think the LeGrande had the door sweep panel farther into the door than the LeBaron.All "J"s with the external exhaust went thru the right side of the hood and going thru the fender if it had a fender. J397 had cycle type fenders and a really good looking pipe arrangement IMHO. The cars with conventional exhaust systems had a double pipe system looking like a very large bore shotgun and an exhaust bypass operated by a handle on the floor on the drivers side.Smaller wheels and skirted fenders were later options. One "J" owner I knew said some of the radically restyled cars were styled after a 1937 Plymouth or as another said,all those wretched Bohman&Schwartz modifications.

Bob Roller

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • landmark
  • Offline
  • Junior Member
  • Registered
More
29 May 2013 10:01 #25243 by landmark

BSteinIPMS wrote: Gentlemen,
As a life-long model builder I've just tackled the old Hubley kit of the 1932 Duesenberg La Grande Dual-cowl Sweep panel Phaeton and for the type of work and detailing I usually do I expect this to be a multi-year project. To make an accurate model of a real Duesy which actually (at one time) existed, I have about a gazillion questions, if you'd be so kind.

First, I have over a dozen books on Duesenbergs and have done extensive online and photo research to attempt finding answers without bothering the members of this fine group with basic questions, which, I know, can be really annoying.

1. I'm interested in duplicating the color scheme of the SJ in the Louwman Museum, but can't determine if there are four or eight segmented exhaust pipes. There are no left-hand views that I've found which would answer this.

2. I understand the V-windshield of this vehicle was later added by Rollston. Does this imply that it was originally produced with the straight windshield as in the Hubley/Gabriel kit?

3. I was under the impression that the segmented exhaust pipes were first introduced with the SJ model in 1932, but I understand that some vehicles had them added later for looks. The ACD Museum book "It's a Duesy!" has a color photograph of a 1929 SJ in the colors I'd like to duplicate, but the caption reads that it's a LeBaron body, not La Grande. This LeBaron body looks identical to the La Grand body in the Louwman to my untrained eye, aside from the trunk. Additionally, this seems early for an SJ. 1929?

4. I like the color scheme of the Collings Foundation SJ Phaeton, but see that it has the eight-section exhaust pipes rather than the four segmented pipes. Is there any possibility it had them at one time? I wouldn't think so unless the four fender ports were filled in.

5. For you model builders out there, is it possible the Hubley/Gabriel kit is mislabeled? That it really represents a LeBaron body rather than a La Grande?

Thanks so much for your patience!
Cheers!
--Bob


Hello Bob,

in addition to what Kay and Bob Roller already told:

1. As Kay said; four Pipes on the right side. The Duesenberg J-engine is a straight (inline) eight engine ->right side is the exhaust-side, left side the intake side (no exhaust-pipes there!)
Some "new" replica (fake) cars are V-8 powered and have exhaustpipes on both sides, e.g. the yellow "Duesenberg" in the new Great Gatsby movie is such a replica car (not an original Duesenberg J!)


2. I would guess so, many bodies were restyled/modified in the second half of the thirties (and later) B.t.w. that car is J-532 and was topic in an older posting, here it is: forums.phpstack-1081784-3880776.cloudwaysapps.com/phpbb2/viewto ... cd8550105f


3. As Bob Roller told and the sweep-panel DCPs of each of both companies differ a in some details from car to car e.g. some La Grande DCP have the doorhandles in front and open in front other open (like modern cars) in rear (doorhandles in rear of the door) a.s.o.


I think the complete Model J serie is named by the factory as "Model J" (supercharged or not) the "SJ" designation comes not from the factory. Only some of the very late produced cars were named JN, the N means new (body) style.

On a lot of former uncharged Model J was a supercharger later added.


4. The eight(port) in one manifold on the Collings Foundation car (J-261) is the very rare "Monel" manifold. I think that manifold was mounted on the early (by factory) supercharged Model J before the "Four-Pipe" Exhausts were introduced.

Here you will find a detail picture of such a manifold: www.rmauctions.com/lots/lot.cfm?lot_id=1060491


5. Do you know this site?

duesey2208.com/Datasheets/frmModelJIndex.htm

When you "klick" on a car you will find additional informations and pictures to that car <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: -->


Cheers

Matt

Was man besonders gerne tut,
ist selten ganz besonders gut

Wilhelm Busch

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Bob Roller
  • Offline
  • Premium Member
  • Registered
More
28 May 2013 23:48 #25239 by Bob Roller
Replied by Bob Roller on topic Models of Duesenbergs
Actually,all model "J"s are 1929's but are usually dated by the year they were titled and registered for use by the first owner. The superchargers were added after 1931 and I have an ad for July 1932 for a supercharged
engine from Vanity Fair.(I think)
I think the LeGrande had the door sweep panel farther into the door than the LeBaron.All "J"s with the external exhaust went thru the right side of the hood and going thru the fender if it had a fender. J397 had cycle type fenders and a really good looking pipe arrangement IMHO. The cars with conventional exhaust systems had a double pipe system looking like a very large bore shotgun and an exhaust bypass operated by a handle on the floor on the drivers side.Smaller wheels and skirted fenders were later options. One "J" owner I knew said some of the radically restyled cars were styled after a 1937 Plymouth or as another said,all those wretched Bohman&amp;Schwartz modifications.

Bob Roller

Bob Roller

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • BSteinIPMS
  • Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Junior Member
  • Registered
More
28 May 2013 14:29 #25235 by BSteinIPMS
Replied by BSteinIPMS on topic Re: four exhaust pipes, not eight
Hi Kay,

Thanks very much! That answers one question.

Cheers!
--Bob

Kay wrote: Hi Bob,

re 1: It has four exhaust pipes. There aren't any on the left side. Take a look into the mirror on this photo: farm8.staticflickr.com/7047/6893 ... bcca_b.jpg

Regards
Kay

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
28 May 2013 07:20 #25232 by Kay
Replied by Kay on topic four exhaust pipes, not eight
Hi Bob,

re 1: It has four exhaust pipes. There aren't any on the left side. Take a look into the mirror on this photo: farm8.staticflickr.com/7047/6893 ... bcca_b.jpg

Regards
Kay

-since 2012: Cord 812 S/C Custom Beverly
-Palm Beach Tan/Deep Maroon/matching #
-unrestored " Sleeping Beauty " condition
-same owner in Southern California '49-'12

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • BSteinIPMS
  • Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Junior Member
  • Registered
More
27 May 2013 19:52 #25227 by BSteinIPMS
Gentlemen,
As a life-long model builder I've just tackled the old Hubley kit of the 1932 Duesenberg La Grande Dual-cowl Sweep panel Phaeton and for the type of work and detailing I usually do I expect this to be a multi-year project. To make an accurate model of a real Duesy which actually (at one time) existed, I have about a gazillion questions, if you'd be so kind.

First, I have over a dozen books on Duesenbergs and have done extensive online and photo research to attempt finding answers without bothering the members of this fine group with basic questions, which, I know, can be really annoying.

1. I'm interested in duplicating the color scheme of the SJ in the Louwman Museum, but can't determine if there are four or eight segmented exhaust pipes. There are no left-hand views that I've found which would answer this.

2. I understand the V-windshield of this vehicle was later added by Rollston. Does this imply that it was originally produced with the straight windshield as in the Hubley/Gabriel kit?

3. I was under the impression that the segmented exhaust pipes were first introduced with the SJ model in 1932, but I understand that some vehicles had them added later for looks. The ACD Museum book "It's a Duesy!" has a color photograph of a 1929 SJ in the colors I'd like to duplicate, but the caption reads that it's a LeBaron body, not La Grande. This LeBaron body looks identical to the La Grand body in the Louwman to my untrained eye, aside from the trunk. Additionally, this seems early for an SJ. 1929?

4. I like the color scheme of the Collings Foundation SJ Phaeton, but see that it has the eight-section exhaust pipes rather than the four segmented pipes. Is there any possibility it had them at one time? I wouldn't think so unless the four fender ports were filled in.

5. For you model builders out there, is it possible the Hubley/Gabriel kit is mislabeled? That it really represents a LeBaron body rather than a La Grande?

Thanks so much for your patience!
Cheers!
--Bob

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Powered by Kunena Forum