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Duesenberg J-587 Bohman & Schwartz "Throne Car&quot

  • silverghost
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06 Apr 2013 05:14 #24941 by silverghost
I sent Nancy some auction web links from the sale of the car out of the Texas O'Quinn estate collection auction.

Nancy also wanted to know if any Duesenberg owner with a "similar" Duesenberg car could drive around in order to have their "similar" car photographed for their documentary film.

I told her that there IS NO "Similar" looking model "J" Duesenberg Model "J" as Father Divine's 10 pasenger "Throne Car" was a true one-of-a-kind~~~~
The largest, longest, & widest Body, & longest Chassis on a Model "J" Duesenberg ever built~~~

I basically told her it was an Overgrown Beast !
Really an odd-ball, and not a real true representation of the really grand & sporty Model "J" Duesenbergs we all know, & go crazy over, today.

I also sent her six faded, & yellowed, color print scans of early 1970s file photos I scanned and turned into jpeg email format that my Father took of the car at the Woodmont Estate's carriage house when we first inspected it for another noted 70's collector at that early 1970s time period.

I believe Mother Divine was asking $30-$32K for the long stored, abused, & non running unrestored car at this time; as Dad had noted this price on the back of one of the 40+ year old prints!

WOW~~~~How prices have changed !!!

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. BRAD HUNTER Huntingdon Valley Pa/Ocean City NJ 215 947 4676 Engineer & RE Developer Brass & Classic Auto, Antique Boat, Mechanical Automatic Music Machine, & Jukebox Collector

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05 Apr 2013 15:14 #24936 by Bicknell
A friend of mine sent me a photo of the car taken in a museum in The Netherlands about 6 months ago. I didn't save it, but if anyone would like me to recheck this i will. Bill

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27 Mar 2013 02:46 #24882 by silverghost
I was contacted last week by Nancy at

<a href="mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url]

who is doing a TV documentary on Father Divine, his Peace Mission Church, his various mansion estates, hotels, churches etc; as well as his famous giant 10 passenger Duesenberg "J" "Throne Car".

If anyone here on the forum can help her with any information. old in the day period, &amp; present day photos, of the giant Duesenberg "J" etc. she would really appreciate all your help &amp; effort!
Thank You !

Please contact Nancy directly at~~

<a href="mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url]

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. BRAD HUNTER Huntingdon Valley Pa/Ocean City NJ 215 947 4676 Engineer & RE Developer Brass & Classic Auto, Antique Boat, Mechanical Automatic Music Machine, & Jukebox Collector

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  • Bob Roller
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18 Jan 2013 12:57 #24334 by Bob Roller
Replied by Bob Roller on topic Throne car
The wheel problem was supposedly wire wheels failing because of the weight of this mechanical abomination.The sheer weight of the car + a fan club was too much. In recent times,I THINK that the O'Quinn collection had it restored by Mr.Roxas.I saw pictures of it as a dismantled car in his shop.

Bob Roller

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  • Chris Summers
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18 Jan 2013 01:07 #24333 by Chris Summers
An article I wrote on the Throne Car has been in the tiller to go into the newsletter for a while now. We're trying to find better recent pictures.

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  • landmark
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17 Jan 2013 12:46 #24327 by landmark
Hello,

according to an article (incl. a picture) at the german classic car magzine "Oldtimer Markt", the "Throne car" is now -displayed at/a part of- the Louwman Collection in Den Haag (The Hague) in the Netherlands.

If I got it right, the Collection sold a Murphy Convertible Sedan last year (@Pebble Beach?) and bought the Throne car instead.

Matt

Was man besonders gerne tut,
ist selten ganz besonders gut

Wilhelm Busch

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  • landmark
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20 Aug 2011 18:09 #20773 by landmark

landmark wrote: Hello,

the Throne car is under offer at Quail Lodge Sale, 18 Aug 2011 to 19 Aug 2011

Estimate: $ 400000 - $ 600000

www.bonhams.com/usa/auction/19363/lot/420/


As well as this "nice" :rolleyes: Duesy www.prewarcar.com/classifieds/ad57199.html

and this rebuilt Torpedo Pheaton: www.prewarcar.com/classifieds/ad57203.html

Are that all O'Quinn cars?

It seems there are a lot of offers of high class prewar cars this year.

Looks like a lot of collectors (or their inheritors) want to (or must) make cash.

The results could be interesting...

Matt


Hello,

I just checked the Bonhams-homepage about the results of the Quail Lodge auction.
It looks like that Bonhams has not sold any of the three offered Duesenbergs.

Is that right?

Matt

Was man besonders gerne tut,
ist selten ganz besonders gut

Wilhelm Busch

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  • landmark
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09 Aug 2011 18:17 #20697 by landmark
Hello,

the Throne car is under offer at Quail Lodge Sale, 18 Aug 2011 to 19 Aug 2011

Estimate: $ 400000 - $ 600000

www.bonhams.com/usa/auction/19363/lot/420/


As well as this "nice" :rolleyes: Duesy www.prewarcar.com/classifieds/ad57199.html

and this rebuilt Torpedo Pheaton: www.prewarcar.com/classifieds/ad57203.html

Are that all O'Quinn cars?

It seems there are a lot of offers of high class prewar cars this year.

Looks like a lot of collectors (or their inheritors) want to (or must) make cash.

The results could be interesting...

Matt

Was man besonders gerne tut,
ist selten ganz besonders gut

Wilhelm Busch

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  • landmark
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30 Jun 2011 18:07 #20386 by landmark
Hi there,

this picture was taken at The Imperial Palace Hotel in 1996. In the behind the is the open rear end of the throne car.
I haven't taken more photos of the throne car cause I disliked the car and had just a limited amount of colourslide-film to use. It was the pre-Digital-era :rolleyes:



Matt

Was man besonders gerne tut,
ist selten ganz besonders gut

Wilhelm Busch

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  • silverghost
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21 Nov 2010 11:31 #18486 by silverghost
Replied by silverghost on topic Tom Mix Duesenberg
Let's not forget the so-called Tom Mix Duesenberg with the longhorn cattle horns up front~

To me it is a close second on the ugliest model "J" list ~

Second only to the Father Divine "Throne Car"

But that's just my opinion~
.
O'Quinn owned BOTH cars !

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. BRAD HUNTER Huntingdon Valley Pa/Ocean City NJ 215 947 4676 Engineer & RE Developer Brass & Classic Auto, Antique Boat, Mechanical Automatic Music Machine, & Jukebox Collector

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  • Bob Roller
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21 Nov 2010 10:47 #18485 by Bob Roller
Replied by Bob Roller on topic Throne Car and the &quot;20 Grand&quot;
It would make a great display to have the Throne Car and the "20 Grand" in the same collection. One would be the Ultimate Turkey and the other the Ultimate four passenger Sedan.
It is my understanding that Mr.Roxas has restored the Throne car for the O'Quinn collection but Mr.O'Quinn was killed in a tragic accident and I do not know what the status now is on this monstrosity.

Bob Roller

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18 Nov 2010 13:50 #18461 by alsancle
For you architecture buffs like me:

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17 Nov 2010 21:40 #18452 by silverghost
Replied by silverghost on topic Throne Car Photo
Robbie Thank You:

This is exactly what I was talking about .
As you can see the throne would rise.

It would seem that this car was only used for a very short time by Father Divine.
Possibly less than five years or so~
The rear wire wheels were said to be a real issue with all the weight of this auto and 10 + people that would be in his constant inner-circle riding along in the Duesenberg.

It was retired in the "Woodmont" estate carriage house for many decades before, and after, we inspected it in the 1970s.

The carriage house had it's own heat and an in-ground lighted service pit with a heavy steel safety grate on top !
There was also a large fancy apartment above for his driver ,

There were many earlier and later vintage cars in this massive carriage house !
He had an entire collection of great autos housed there!
It is said he often would travel in a large motorcade of six or more autos~

I believe Father Divine passed-away in 1965 ?
He had stated before he died that he would soon return to again join the living.

It is said that his great throne dining chair in the massive "Woodmont" estate dining room still sits empty with his full dinner place setting waiting for him at all Uiversal Peace Mission meals waiting for his return.

So far he has not done so~
Many of his many followers are still waiting for his expected return...

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. BRAD HUNTER Huntingdon Valley Pa/Ocean City NJ 215 947 4676 Engineer & RE Developer Brass & Classic Auto, Antique Boat, Mechanical Automatic Music Machine, & Jukebox Collector

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  • Robbie Marenzi
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17 Nov 2010 20:48 #18448 by Robbie Marenzi
Father Divine in the Duesenberg, with roof open and raised throne.



Robbie Marenzi
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Argentina

Robbie Marenzi
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17 Nov 2010 05:48 #18435 by silverghost
Replied by silverghost on topic Throne Car:
When Father Divine would use this car to speak at a UNIVERSAL PEACE MISSION CHURCH rally the rear top would automatically open and the "Throne Seating"would rise !

There was also a vacuum-tube amplified PA system with a microphone and two small Atlas weatherproof Driver-horn speakers that faced downward &amp; outward under the car chassis for the Father to use.

All these systems were still on this car at his grand large mansion estate "Woodmont" in Gladwyne PA just outside Philadelphia when my Father &amp; I inspected this car in the early 1970s ! Mother Divine actually showed us the car personally !

Mother Divine, who is still today very much alive as she was decades younger than the Father, could confirm all of this info. on this car~
He was an African-American~
She is a white woman.

Mother Divine is a very kind &amp; nice lady to speak with.

She is still living at "Woodmont " today in 2010 !

By the way~
That Duesey was NOT the only great auto that we saw in the"Woodmont" carriage house~ There were many more !!!

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. BRAD HUNTER Huntingdon Valley Pa/Ocean City NJ 215 947 4676 Engineer & RE Developer Brass & Classic Auto, Antique Boat, Mechanical Automatic Music Machine, & Jukebox Collector

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17 Nov 2010 05:08 #18432 by Tom_Parkinson
Hi,

Never much liked those covered sidemounts. BUT--I'll make room in my garage...

--Tom

With brakes, two cylinders are better than one.

Editor-in-Chief Emeritus, The Hardtop News Magazine, the Journal of the Michiana Dunes Region, Lambda Car Club International

See pix of 1509A here: mbcurl.me/YCSE

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  • Robbie Marenzi
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17 Nov 2010 01:29 #18424 by Robbie Marenzi
I found this picture on eBay, it says: Father Divine?s Throne Car ready for delivery 10/15/37

cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 709wt_1018

Auction ends: Nov 20, 2010 19:39:49 PST





I thought somebody may want to buy it.

Robbie Marenzi
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Argentina

Robbie Marenzi
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  • Chris Summers
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10 Nov 2007 04:22 #8665 by Chris Summers

bill powell wrote: when something broke, like the hydraulics in the roof, it was eliminated.


Good thing the engine never quit! <!-- s:twisted: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_twisted.gif" alt=":twisted:" title="Twisted Evil" /><!-- s:twisted: -->

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10 Nov 2007 02:41 #8662 by bill powell
It appears that the people responsible for maintaining the car knew very little about it, and when something broke, like the hydraulics in the roof, it was eliminated.

After it was retired parts were robbed off it to put on other cars. For instance, the chassis oil pump is a solid casting which was never a functional pump.

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25 Aug 2007 20:47 #7870 by bill powell
It's like a one piece lift off landau cap. It appears to have been dropped at one time. Also the fitting studs are broken or have been cut off. All that will be repaired. It has to lift totally off.

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25 Aug 2007 16:20 #7868 by Chris Summers
Does the top over the rear seat still lower or is it just "capped" with a Carson top-like cover?

The photos in one of my Blackhawk Collection Expo Sale catalogs show it with the rear end open and it doesn't look like there IS a top there.

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25 Aug 2007 12:36 #7866 by bill powell
Interesting update on the Father Divine car. It was just discovered that the car was not black originally, but a very dark green. Parts are being scrounged up now to make the car correct again. It's gonna be totally beautimous. Well, maybe not beautimous, but certainly impressive.

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25 Jun 2007 02:57 #7315 by georgealbright
Replied by georgealbright on topic The Father Devine Car at Hershey in 1986 or 1995
It appeared the Father Devine car was for sale in the old white field at Hershey in either 1986 or 1995/95. Can't keep my decades straight! I inspected the car and it had a new slightly amateurish black paint job. I spoke to whoever had it for sale,and they stated that when it was purchased,Father Devines bunch was trying to run it on 6 cylinders,and the other 2 rods and pistons were sitting beside the car! I guess they were better at prayin than mechanicing! George Albright

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  • bill powell
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23 Jun 2007 17:54 #7291 by bill powell
Thank you. I never knew this site existed til yesterday, or day before.

I like the Keels and Wheels show. If they keep selling land and the condos continue to crowd in we may run out of a show.

You can raise the hood on the throne car and way down inside the engine compartment is the original Duesenberg cast firewall and cowl lip.

They apparently used a chassis, built a wide body, and slid it down over the stock width car cause the steering wheel is ten inches from the lleft door. On either side of the dash are spacers out to the doors. It has a stock width rear seat with padded spacers out to the body. The jump seat behind the divider window is over six feet wide. It had floor heaters that have been updated to squirrel cage blowers.

On one of the father divine websites was a description of how it originally envisioned. White leather and gold interior. the description made it sound like a persian cat house.

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  • Greg Riley
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23 Jun 2007 16:04 #7290 by Greg Riley
Replied by Greg Riley on topic Welcome Bill!
Bill,
Welcome! It was a pleasure to see you at Keels &amp; Wheels.
Greg

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23 Jun 2007 14:05 #7287 by bill powell
Replied by bill powell on topic throne car
I was working on the throne car just yesterday. All the sheet metal points in generally the right direction, but the rear cap looks to have dropped on its edges. It has a couple of broken windows. The interior is not bad, except for the trim piece above the dash.

It still has two of the re-enforced seventeen inch wheels, and has a full set of seventeen inch chrome 'safety' wheels. The re-enforced wheels have a round plate welded to the backside of the rim, and some ultra heavy duty spokes welded between the existing spokes. The round plate is bolted to probably a modified brake drum, and it spaces the wheel out to far to use the Duesenberg center nut. For display and minimum driving the chrome wheels would probably work. The re-enforced wheels are way too ugly to display, so it would probably need full wheel covers to be pretty.

We started the car a few months ago just to see if it would run.

The splice where the frame was lengthened is under the front doors.

I'm interested in the trunk and trunk mount shown in the profile photo. anyone know about it?

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20 Dec 2006 19:56 #5982 by 29AV8
Replied by 29AV8 on topic Divine Car
I saw the car at the Petersen not too long ago, along with the Guerney-Nutting roadster, the Wrigley car, and others. It was restored at that point and looked pretty good.

Pictures do not do it justice. That thing had to be at least 8 feet tall. It's more like a bus with a long hood. It was not pretty, more like 'brooding'.

Also on display was Bill 'Bojangles' Robinson's JN Berline (Rollston/Bohman &amp; Schwartz). I believe he bought that car new as well, but talk about two vastly different african-american owned cars...

29AV8

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  • RandyEma
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09 Nov 2006 01:30 #5747 by RandyEma
Yes the Father Divine has been somewhat restored. Randy Ema

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08 Nov 2006 22:01 #5745 by Chris Summers
Replied by Chris Summers on topic Hmmm...
Eric,

Not having a first-born son to trade for a copy of Fred Roe's book-- :D--I got my info from the Blackhawk Collection expo catalog for 1999: "This car is still in original condition throughout from 1937." The car looks no different in the photos in the catalog than in the ones from O'Quinn's Greg posted.

On the other hand, the catalog also spells late collector Sergio Franchi's last name as "Frankie." :rolleyes: So I'll go with Roe, too.

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08 Nov 2006 06:12 #5740 by Duesey
I may very well stand to be corrected, but I remember reading in Fred Roe's book that the Devine car was in horrible condition when he last saw the car, so I would stand to reckon that the car has been restored to some extent some time in its life. This isn't based on any personal knowledge, mind you, just what I have read.

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  • Greg Riley
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06 Nov 2006 04:31 #5731 by Greg Riley
The car seems to be in very good overall condition. I can't answer whether or not it has ever been restored. It is in presentable but not concours condition.

A saw a small amount of cracking paint. The lighting was too poor to really make a judgment on the bright work although I had the impression it was very nice. The interior is very presentable but doesn't appear "new". I didn't hear it run and didn't think to ask about the mechanical condition.

I'm sure there other ACD members that can answer better than I as to the originality of the car. If it is original it is very well preserved.

The car gives the impression of great bulk particularly at the rear. The coachwork seems disproportionally wide when compared to the rear track. It stood taller than all of the other cars in the room except for one Pre-WWI Mercedes.

I don't have any information about the eventual plans for the car. There are so many fabulous vehicles in Mr. O'Quinn's collection it is very hard to focus on just one. :D

Greg Riley

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06 Nov 2006 03:54 #5729 by Chris Summers
I'm sure Greg will be able to provide a more definite answer on the car's condition, but I seem to recall that it's an unrestored original, so I hope they leave it as is.

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  • 1930 Jordan
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05 Nov 2006 12:33 #5724 by 1930 Jordan
Will this one need restoration, or are they going to leave it as is ??

1930 Jordan"G" line 90,1953 Plymouth,1951 Chrysler Saratoga,1975 Dart,1974 Schwinn Collgate,1978 Schwinn Continental,1971 Honda 500"4",1973 Honda 350"twin",1975 Honda 500"twin",1955 Norton,1988 Honda Shadow custom,05 crossfire roadster.

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03 Nov 2006 14:48 #5703 by Bill Hummel
Replied by Bill Hummel on topic INFO ABOUT FATHER DEVINE
Here is a link to the WIKIPEDIA entry for Father Devine. I suppose you could modify it to include a picture of his Duesenberg.


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_Devine











.

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  • Greg Riley
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02 Nov 2006 23:02 #5700 by Greg Riley
I had the opportunity to inspect and photograph the Father Devine car today at the O'Quinn collection. It appeared to be in generally very good shape although far from Concours condition. The shop people responsible for moving this behemoth around don't particularly like it due to the extreme bulk.

I was struck with the unbelievable width of the rear track versus the width of the coachwork. It is a very unusual car by any standards.

We had a break-in at our home this week so the only camera I had available was very low quality. I converted the photos to black and white for better contrast and to compensate for the poor lighting.










Greg Riley

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14 Oct 2006 03:47 #5579 by Duesey
My goof on the hubcaps since the car certainly never had them. The wheel-bound part that would fail was, according to Fred Roe in [i:8kkltpoh]Duesenberg: Prsuit of Perfection[/i:8kkltpoh] on page 149, the wheel spokes. The tended to snap under the massive weight of the car. Although, I feel like if the wheel flexed so much that the spokes could snap, maybe it was possible for it to jetison the wheel centers too, but those were probably secured on pretty well.

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13 Oct 2006 03:09 #5572 by Greg Riley
I'm supposed to go to O'Quinns in a couple of weeks to photograph another car. I'll see if they will let me take a couple of pictures to post.

Greg Riley

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12 Oct 2006 15:43 #5570 by West Peterson
Replied by West Peterson on topic Re: Father Devine Duesenberg

Bill Hummel wrote: I just got back from Las Vegas, and I was at the Imperial Palace Car Collection on Tuesday. The Father Devine Duesenberg was not on display.

Read Randy's post.

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12 Oct 2006 15:27 #5569 by Bill Hummel
Replied by Bill Hummel on topic Father Devine Duesenberg
I just got back from Las Vegas, and I was at the Imperial Palace Car Collection on Tuesday. The Father Devine Duesenberg was not on display.

The collection is rather unimpressive now. Most of the good cars are gone. No Cords, no Auburns, and only two Duesenbergs that weren't all that striking.

I did not make note of their J-numbers. One was for sale for $550,000 so it must need a lot of work.....

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12 Oct 2006 12:39 #5566 by West Peterson
It probably wouldn't hurt the looks of the car one iota if it were equipped with dual rear wheels. In fact, it would probably improve it, as then it would look more like the truck that it is.

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12 Oct 2006 05:33 #5564 by Duesey

RandyEma wrote: Hello I never heard the hubcap story , but the wheels are sure welded up. The car is now at OQuins in Houston. Randy Ema


I know something on the wheels used to fail. I'll have to check my various Duesenberg books. Maybe it was just wheel wires snapping...

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12 Oct 2006 01:27 #5562 by RandyEma
Hello I never heard the hubcap story , but the wheels are sure welded up. The car is now at OQuins in Houston. Randy Ema

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  • Mike Dube
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11 Oct 2006 17:39 #5560 by Mike Dube
Yeah West, I'm with you, what hubcaps? The way I heard it, they couldn't keep spokes in the rear wheels.

Mike
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11 Oct 2006 17:33 #5559 by West Peterson

Duesey wrote: I've heard the throne car was so heavy, that the hubcaps use to pop off when it went over bumps and through turns as the 7000 lb car flexed its wheels.

Hubcaps???

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26 Sep 2006 06:38 #5488 by Duesey
Here is an image:



Found here

Listed as a 1937 Duesenberg Model J Bohman & Schwartz Landualet

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18 Nov 2004 18:07 #2496 by 250cal
Replied by 250cal on topic Father Divine Throne CAr
For a contemporary story on the car see;

Father Divine article, Time,1 937: Tells about construction of Throne car, and shows construction photo with "Star" window.


John Apen

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  • RandyEma
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11 Nov 2004 01:49 #2471 by RandyEma
Brian The last I knew of J587 it was at Dean Kruses in Auburn, In and looked pretty good. Randy Ema

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  • Brian R Peterson
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09 Nov 2004 06:38 #2468 by Brian R Peterson
Hi!

I was aware that the J-587 was a one off, with being the largest wheelbase Duesenberg built, it was also reportedly ordered by a "John the Baptist"

The original specs were to have a dove replace the hood ornament, the pasenger compartment featuring a white leather headliner with gold stars and moons, a raised central throne with semi circular seating for eight, and the side lights in the removeable section of the roof to be stars with the rear being a crescent moon.

It would seem that the customer came to his senses as the finished car, while still a monstrosity, was somewhat normal looking.

I know the car is in very bad condition now, but I wonder what would possess someone to abandon a car as fantastic as a Duesenberg?

Best Regards,

Brian

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  • Duesey
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09 Nov 2004 04:22 #2467 by Duesey
I used to have a picture of that not so pretty looking car, but I have since lost it. It was the longest Duesenberg ever built though, with a 168" wheelbase, and it was one of only 2 Duesenberg J's ever delivered new to an African American (the other J was delivered to a tennis player whose name escapes me). I've heard the throne car was so heavy, that the hubcaps use to pop off when it went over bumps and through turns as the 7000 lb car flexed its wheels.

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  • Brian R Peterson
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09 Nov 2004 02:56 #2464 by Brian R Peterson
Hi All,

I am a Duesenberg enthusiast and amateur historian, and this is my first post to the board.

I am very interested in the 1937 Duesenberg Model J-587 Town Car built for Father Divine.

I spoke with Jon Bill in the ACD Archives and he tells me the car has survived but is in very rough shape and is currently in the Imperial Palace Collection.

I am very interested in this car as it is one of the most unique Duesenberg models in my opinion, and I would very much like to know if there are any photos of the car, aside from the tiny ones in [i:1u9h1jv9]Mightiest Motor Car[/i:1u9h1jv9].

I would also like to know if there are photos of the interior, or if anyone knows what color the car was and if it is planned on being restored as I think it would make a fascinating addition to any collection.

Thanks,

Brian R. Peterson

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