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Duesenberg J-587 Bohman & Schwartz "Throne Car"
- silverghost
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Nancy also wanted to know if any Duesenberg owner with a "similar" Duesenberg car could drive around in order to have their "similar" car photographed for their documentary film.
I told her that there IS NO "Similar" looking model "J" Duesenberg Model "J" as Father Divine's 10 pasenger "Throne Car" was a true one-of-a-kind~~~~
The largest, longest, & widest Body, & longest Chassis on a Model "J" Duesenberg ever built~~~
I basically told her it was an Overgrown Beast !
Really an odd-ball, and not a real true representation of the really grand & sporty Model "J" Duesenbergs we all know, & go crazy over, today.
I also sent her six faded, & yellowed, color print scans of early 1970s file photos I scanned and turned into jpeg email format that my Father took of the car at the Woodmont Estate's carriage house when we first inspected it for another noted 70's collector at that early 1970s time period.
I believe Mother Divine was asking $30-$32K for the long stored, abused, & non running unrestored car at this time; as Dad had noted this price on the back of one of the 40+ year old prints!
WOW~~~~How prices have changed !!!
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- silverghost
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<a href="mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url]
who is doing a TV documentary on Father Divine, his Peace Mission Church, his various mansion estates, hotels, churches etc; as well as his famous giant 10 passenger Duesenberg "J" "Throne Car".
If anyone here on the forum can help her with any information. old in the day period, & present day photos, of the giant Duesenberg "J" etc. she would really appreciate all your help & effort!
Thank You !
Please contact Nancy directly at~~
<a href="mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url]
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- landmark
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according to an article (incl. a picture) at the german classic car magzine "Oldtimer Markt", the "Throne car" is now -displayed at/a part of- the Louwman Collection in Den Haag (The Hague) in the Netherlands.
If I got it right, the Collection sold a Murphy Convertible Sedan last year (@Pebble Beach?) and bought the Throne car instead.
Matt
Was man besonders gerne tut,
ist selten ganz besonders gut
Wilhelm Busch
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- landmark
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landmark wrote: Hello,
the Throne car is under offer at Quail Lodge Sale, 18 Aug 2011 to 19 Aug 2011
Estimate: $ 400000 - $ 600000
www.bonhams.com/usa/auction/19363/lot/420/
As well as this "nice" :rolleyes: Duesy www.prewarcar.com/classifieds/ad57199.html
and this rebuilt Torpedo Pheaton: www.prewarcar.com/classifieds/ad57203.html
Are that all O'Quinn cars?
It seems there are a lot of offers of high class prewar cars this year.
Looks like a lot of collectors (or their inheritors) want to (or must) make cash.
The results could be interesting...
Matt
Hello,
I just checked the Bonhams-homepage about the results of the Quail Lodge auction.
It looks like that Bonhams has not sold any of the three offered Duesenbergs.
Is that right?
Matt
Was man besonders gerne tut,
ist selten ganz besonders gut
Wilhelm Busch
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- landmark
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the Throne car is under offer at Quail Lodge Sale, 18 Aug 2011 to 19 Aug 2011
Estimate: $ 400000 - $ 600000
www.bonhams.com/usa/auction/19363/lot/420/
As well as this "nice" :rolleyes: Duesy www.prewarcar.com/classifieds/ad57199.html
and this rebuilt Torpedo Pheaton: www.prewarcar.com/classifieds/ad57203.html
Are that all O'Quinn cars?
It seems there are a lot of offers of high class prewar cars this year.
Looks like a lot of collectors (or their inheritors) want to (or must) make cash.
The results could be interesting...
Matt
Was man besonders gerne tut,
ist selten ganz besonders gut
Wilhelm Busch
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- landmark
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this picture was taken at The Imperial Palace Hotel in 1996. In the behind the is the open rear end of the throne car.
I haven't taken more photos of the throne car cause I disliked the car and had just a limited amount of colourslide-film to use. It was the pre-Digital-era :rolleyes:
Matt
Was man besonders gerne tut,
ist selten ganz besonders gut
Wilhelm Busch
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- silverghost
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To me it is a close second on the ugliest model "J" list ~
Second only to the Father Divine "Throne Car"
But that's just my opinion~
.
O'Quinn owned BOTH cars !
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- Bob Roller
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It is my understanding that Mr.Roxas has restored the Throne car for the O'Quinn collection but Mr.O'Quinn was killed in a tragic accident and I do not know what the status now is on this monstrosity.
Bob Roller
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- silverghost
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This is exactly what I was talking about .
As you can see the throne would rise.
It would seem that this car was only used for a very short time by Father Divine.
Possibly less than five years or so~
The rear wire wheels were said to be a real issue with all the weight of this auto and 10 + people that would be in his constant inner-circle riding along in the Duesenberg.
It was retired in the "Woodmont" estate carriage house for many decades before, and after, we inspected it in the 1970s.
The carriage house had it's own heat and an in-ground lighted service pit with a heavy steel safety grate on top !
There was also a large fancy apartment above for his driver ,
There were many earlier and later vintage cars in this massive carriage house !
He had an entire collection of great autos housed there!
It is said he often would travel in a large motorcade of six or more autos~
I believe Father Divine passed-away in 1965 ?
He had stated before he died that he would soon return to again join the living.
It is said that his great throne dining chair in the massive "Woodmont" estate dining room still sits empty with his full dinner place setting waiting for him at all Uiversal Peace Mission meals waiting for his return.
So far he has not done so~
Many of his many followers are still waiting for his expected return...
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There was also a vacuum-tube amplified PA system with a microphone and two small Atlas weatherproof Driver-horn speakers that faced downward & outward under the car chassis for the Father to use.
All these systems were still on this car at his grand large mansion estate "Woodmont" in Gladwyne PA just outside Philadelphia when my Father & I inspected this car in the early 1970s ! Mother Divine actually showed us the car personally !
Mother Divine, who is still today very much alive as she was decades younger than the Father, could confirm all of this info. on this car~
He was an African-American~
She is a white woman.
Mother Divine is a very kind & nice lady to speak with.
She is still living at "Woodmont " today in 2010 !
By the way~
That Duesey was NOT the only great auto that we saw in the"Woodmont" carriage house~ There were many more !!!
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Never much liked those covered sidemounts. BUT--I'll make room in my garage...
--Tom
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See pix of 1509A here: mbcurl.me/YCSE
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cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 709wt_1018
Auction ends: Nov 20, 2010 19:39:49 PST
I thought somebody may want to buy it.
Robbie Marenzi
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- Chris Summers
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bill powell wrote: when something broke, like the hydraulics in the roof, it was eliminated.
Good thing the engine never quit! <!-- s:twisted: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_twisted.gif" alt=":twisted:" title="Twisted Evil" /><!-- s:twisted: -->
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- bill powell
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After it was retired parts were robbed off it to put on other cars. For instance, the chassis oil pump is a solid casting which was never a functional pump.
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The photos in one of my Blackhawk Collection Expo Sale catalogs show it with the rear end open and it doesn't look like there IS a top there.
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George Albright Cell 352 843 1624
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- bill powell
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I like the Keels and Wheels show. If they keep selling land and the condos continue to crowd in we may run out of a show.
You can raise the hood on the throne car and way down inside the engine compartment is the original Duesenberg cast firewall and cowl lip.
They apparently used a chassis, built a wide body, and slid it down over the stock width car cause the steering wheel is ten inches from the lleft door. On either side of the dash are spacers out to the doors. It has a stock width rear seat with padded spacers out to the body. The jump seat behind the divider window is over six feet wide. It had floor heaters that have been updated to squirrel cage blowers.
On one of the father divine websites was a description of how it originally envisioned. White leather and gold interior. the description made it sound like a persian cat house.
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- Greg Riley
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Welcome! It was a pleasure to see you at Keels & Wheels.
Greg
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- bill powell
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It still has two of the re-enforced seventeen inch wheels, and has a full set of seventeen inch chrome 'safety' wheels. The re-enforced wheels have a round plate welded to the backside of the rim, and some ultra heavy duty spokes welded between the existing spokes. The round plate is bolted to probably a modified brake drum, and it spaces the wheel out to far to use the Duesenberg center nut. For display and minimum driving the chrome wheels would probably work. The re-enforced wheels are way too ugly to display, so it would probably need full wheel covers to be pretty.
We started the car a few months ago just to see if it would run.
The splice where the frame was lengthened is under the front doors.
I'm interested in the trunk and trunk mount shown in the profile photo. anyone know about it?
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- 29AV8
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Pictures do not do it justice. That thing had to be at least 8 feet tall. It's more like a bus with a long hood. It was not pretty, more like 'brooding'.
Also on display was Bill 'Bojangles' Robinson's JN Berline (Rollston/Bohman & Schwartz). I believe he bought that car new as well, but talk about two vastly different african-american owned cars...
29AV8
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Not having a first-born son to trade for a copy of Fred Roe's book-- --I got my info from the Blackhawk Collection expo catalog for 1999: "This car is still in original condition throughout from 1937." The car looks no different in the photos in the catalog than in the ones from O'Quinn's Greg posted.
On the other hand, the catalog also spells late collector Sergio Franchi's last name as "Frankie." :rolleyes: So I'll go with Roe, too.
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A saw a small amount of cracking paint. The lighting was too poor to really make a judgment on the bright work although I had the impression it was very nice. The interior is very presentable but doesn't appear "new". I didn't hear it run and didn't think to ask about the mechanical condition.
I'm sure there other ACD members that can answer better than I as to the originality of the car. If it is original it is very well preserved.
The car gives the impression of great bulk particularly at the rear. The coachwork seems disproportionally wide when compared to the rear track. It stood taller than all of the other cars in the room except for one Pre-WWI Mercedes.
I don't have any information about the eventual plans for the car. There are so many fabulous vehicles in Mr. O'Quinn's collection it is very hard to focus on just one.
Greg Riley
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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_Devine
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I was struck with the unbelievable width of the rear track versus the width of the coachwork. It is a very unusual car by any standards.
We had a break-in at our home this week so the only camera I had available was very low quality. I converted the photos to black and white for better contrast and to compensate for the poor lighting.
Greg Riley
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Read Randy's post.Bill Hummel wrote: I just got back from Las Vegas, and I was at the Imperial Palace Car Collection on Tuesday. The Father Devine Duesenberg was not on display.
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The collection is rather unimpressive now. Most of the good cars are gone. No Cords, no Auburns, and only two Duesenbergs that weren't all that striking.
I did not make note of their J-numbers. One was for sale for $550,000 so it must need a lot of work.....
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RandyEma wrote: Hello I never heard the hubcap story , but the wheels are sure welded up. The car is now at OQuins in Houston. Randy Ema
I know something on the wheels used to fail. I'll have to check my various Duesenberg books. Maybe it was just wheel wires snapping...
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Hubcaps???Duesey wrote: I've heard the throne car was so heavy, that the hubcaps use to pop off when it went over bumps and through turns as the 7000 lb car flexed its wheels.
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Father Divine article, Time,1 937: Tells about construction of Throne car, and shows construction photo with "Star" window.
John Apen
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I was aware that the J-587 was a one off, with being the largest wheelbase Duesenberg built, it was also reportedly ordered by a "John the Baptist"
The original specs were to have a dove replace the hood ornament, the pasenger compartment featuring a white leather headliner with gold stars and moons, a raised central throne with semi circular seating for eight, and the side lights in the removeable section of the roof to be stars with the rear being a crescent moon.
It would seem that the customer came to his senses as the finished car, while still a monstrosity, was somewhat normal looking.
I know the car is in very bad condition now, but I wonder what would possess someone to abandon a car as fantastic as a Duesenberg?
Best Regards,
Brian
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- Brian R Peterson
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I am a Duesenberg enthusiast and amateur historian, and this is my first post to the board.
I am very interested in the 1937 Duesenberg Model J-587 Town Car built for Father Divine.
I spoke with Jon Bill in the ACD Archives and he tells me the car has survived but is in very rough shape and is currently in the Imperial Palace Collection.
I am very interested in this car as it is one of the most unique Duesenberg models in my opinion, and I would very much like to know if there are any photos of the car, aside from the tiny ones in [i:1u9h1jv9]Mightiest Motor Car[/i:1u9h1jv9].
I would also like to know if there are photos of the interior, or if anyone knows what color the car was and if it is planned on being restored as I think it would make a fascinating addition to any collection.
Thanks,
Brian R. Peterson
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