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810 1794A atrrived at new home

  • johnmereness
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13 Dec 2018 05:49 #36120 by johnmereness
Replied by johnmereness on topic 810 1704A arrived at new home
VERY INTERESTING !

JMM

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  • Thomas Wilcock
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10 Dec 2018 13:17 #36109 by Thomas Wilcock
Replied by Thomas Wilcock on topic 810 1704A arrived at new home
My Cord has no leather anywhere in the interior. The seats, and armrests are covered with the same brown cloth backed leatherette. The pictures may show the cloth backing. My camera does not zoom far. There is only one set of tack holes in the interior wood, indicating that the material is original. There is the possibility that the car was completely gutted at one time and all the wood and interior fabric replaced but I don't think so. The wood definitely is original. If it was redone, it would have to have been before 1947 or 1948. That is when the fellow I got the car from bought it. It was stored in his barn from 1953 until I got it. The barn roof leaked just above the car. That is why the front of the front seat back is so deteriorated. The back of the rear seat is like brand new.
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  • johnmereness
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09 Dec 2018 15:06 - 13 Dec 2018 05:49 #36105 by johnmereness
Replied by johnmereness on topic 810 1704A arrived at new home
Ford "Coach Maroon" and Cord Rich Maroon are about the same - each probably subject to some interpretation as colors are difficult to reproduce, change on the chip cards, and maroons/reds were unstable on the cars too.

As to the reference of Brown Cloth backed leatherette - somewhere people get the idea that Auburn and Cord Interiors are all leather - they are not all leather, but are a combination of leather and vinyl. When I had the interior done in dad's Auburn 851 Phaeton the leather in the car was on the seats, armrests, and rear door pockets - all the rest of the interior was color keyed vinyl. And when I see an original/unrestored Cord 810/812 Open Car it is also vinyl trim on doors and trim with I believe leather on seating surface (but have not seen that many as a pretty rare beast as they say).

JMM
Last edit: 13 Dec 2018 05:49 by johnmereness.

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  • Thomas Wilcock
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08 Dec 2018 21:35 #36100 by Thomas Wilcock
Replied by Thomas Wilcock on topic 810 1704A arrived at new home
How does the color compare to Cord's rich maroon?
In response to the special orders for the paint and interiors, my 1937 (renumbered 36) Phaeton did not come from the factory with leather upholstery. It has a brown cloth backed leatherette. I thought the original color of my car was gray, but on closer inspection the gray could be primer. There is dark blue paint over the gray, even on the dash. I am not sure whether it is the Geneva Blue ( which is not standard on the phaetons). I believe my car originated in the Philadelphia area. The interior and the paint color are probably special order.
Tom

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  • johnmereness
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08 Dec 2018 18:27 #36091 by johnmereness
Replied by johnmereness on topic 810 1704A arrived at new home
I believe the 1936 - 1937 Ford Maroon is "Coach Maroon" - which is an incredibly beautiful color too.

JMM

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  • Terry Cockerell
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07 Dec 2018 20:56 #36089 by Terry Cockerell
Replied by Terry Cockerell on topic 810 1704A arrived at new home
This is a surprise but you have to go with the test results. I had a look in Google Images for 1930's Ford colour charts and couldn't find any. I then tried Claret Maroon Ford colour and saw it listed for 1939 although it may have been available earlier.
Jack Richards has been in contact with Adrian Grieve as mentioned in his email.
Yes it looks like the Myth is Busted.

T cockerell

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  • Michael R
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07 Dec 2018 19:49 #36088 by Michael R
Replied by Michael R on topic 810 1704A arrived at new home
I´m affraid my newest theory is not what we want to hear. It may have been one day in 1939 or later (I think Ford Claret maroon is a 1939 color) when someone decided to paint the tan body of 1704 in this dark maroon matching the interior. He made a note on a paper with the chassis number that he found in his glove box... the key envelope... My 1977 Jaguar had been painted at some point in a more brighter white than original and someone placed a sticker in the glove box in case there might be need of repairs in the future. So if anyone changes the color of a car should leave such a note.
I did some checking today on the "Gorbatschow mark" on the hood you can see on my avatar pic. The "paint-check-gauge" (don´t know the correct english word for this tool) shows realistic dimensions for three layers of paint: first tan, second maroon, third tan again. Same result with sanding on the fender, wich just shows a dark grey filler between paint two and three.
myth busted?
Michael
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  • 1748 S
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07 Dec 2018 15:21 #36086 by 1748 S
Replied by 1748 S on topic 810 1704A arrived at new home
This is fabulous information and finding the person adds tremendous interest to all of this too. As for noting the supercharged cam... Thats easy to prove. A simple check of the spark plug wires will tell the firing order. All non supercharged engines fired all cylinders on one bank and then all cylinders on the other bank. I have been able to lower the idle speed so much you can actually feel and see this type engine fire off all cylinders on one side. Then shift to the other side. When I discovered this about 40 years ago I thought my Dad had done something wrong rebuilding this engine. Stan set me on the correct firing order information. This continues to be a great bit of information on our cars.

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  • Terry Cockerell
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07 Dec 2018 08:59 #36084 by Terry Cockerell
Replied by Terry Cockerell on topic 810 1704A arrived at new home
Jack we do not know if in fact this car was painted to order in a special colour by the Factory. At present we do not know the where abouts of the documentation mentioned in the 2004 Newsletter. If the pieces of the puzzle can be relocated and the body checked then we may have the evidence to prove that 810 812 Cords could be ordered in special colours at extra cost as stated in the Philadelphia ACD agent Teefy Seltz's price list dated March 2nd 1936.
This historic document was found in Auburn by Rick Hulett in the mid 1970s

T cockerell
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  • Jonathan Richards
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07 Dec 2018 04:42 #36081 by Jonathan Richards
Replied by Jonathan Richards on topic 810 1704A arrived at new home
Hello to all who are following this thread. THIS IS THE MOST REMARKABLE PIECE OF CORD MODEL 810/812 ARCHAEOLOGY IN THE LAST DECADE. Adrian Grieve (member #0933) is alive and well in Reno, NV. I have spoken to him this evening by phone and he recalls the visit to Glenn Pray's "Pickle Factory" years ago and remembered Mr. Rohde's 1936 Westchester in Glenn's shop. In fact Glenn gave Adrian a ride in the car. Adrian says Glenn told him the engine has a Supercharged camshaft !! I had just written to Cord 810/812 Historian Ron Irwin yesterday giving him requested information on the car. Then today this wonderful surprise. The Cord fellowship and the ACD Club scene is exquisite. I hope you, Michael Rohde , have or are joining the ACD Club. More later on this remarkable factory custom coloured Cord.
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  • Terry Cockerell
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06 Dec 2018 21:49 #36076 by Terry Cockerell
Replied by Terry Cockerell on topic 810 1704A arrived at new home
I did some excavating this morning and found the Newsletter article in Issue No 4, 2004.
I have attached a copy. It states, Adrian Grieve copied the envelope when visiting Glenn some years ago and found that Claret Maroon was a colour used by Ford through much of the 1930s and into the 40s.
The article also states Glenn Pray had some of the dealers original documents including the key envelope.
Perhaps Felix DeGeyter can shed some light on what happened to the documents?
I would like to know what turns up on this issue.

T cockerell
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  • JIM.OBRIEN
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06 Dec 2018 21:27 #36075 by JIM.OBRIEN
Replied by JIM.OBRIEN on topic 810 1704A arrived at new home
Adrian Grieve was a Club member from Nevada. He is not on the current membership directory so I don't know if he is still around.

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  • Michael R
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06 Dec 2018 20:30 #36073 by Michael R
Replied by Michael R on topic 810 1704A arrived at new home
just discovered the picture of the envelope in the book where "Adrian Grieve" is named as the contributor of the picture and so he might still have this envelope. As you can see the car is now tan with a dark marron under the tan. If you peel away the paint (see pics in this thread before) it shows some pink underneath. And yes, Glenn A. Pray (revocable trust) was a previous owner, but I think they only traded it.

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  • Terry Cockerell
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06 Dec 2018 19:25 - 06 Dec 2018 19:29 #36071 by Terry Cockerell
Replied by Terry Cockerell on topic 810 1704A arrived at new home
Hi Michael.
This is a wonderful find for you and me. I saw an article in an old ACD Club newsletter on your car with the reference to the car being painted a non standard colour. The car was at the time with Glen Pray in Oklahoma. I contacted Doug and Felix but was not able to get any further information on the car. I believe the colour was a standard Ford colour from the article. I will have to dig through the old newsletters again to find it. Do you still have the key envelope???????????
Have you done any checking of the original body colour ??????????/
This is a wonderful re-discovery.

T cockerell
Last edit: 06 Dec 2018 19:29 by Terry Cockerell. Reason: Spelling error

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  • Michael R
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06 Dec 2018 19:08 #36070 by Michael R
Replied by Michael R on topic 810 1704A arrived at new home
Thank you Curt, "lacqeur" is a great find and "claret" is as clear as the red wine, but can we be shure with the maroon? I think there are two letters between the "m" and the "r"??? and only one letter before the "n" is following: "m--r-n"???

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  • Curt Schulze
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06 Dec 2018 17:07 #36069 by Curt Schulze
Replied by Curt Schulze on topic 810 1704A arrived at new home
claret maroon lacquer

The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
Be of Good Cheer
Curt
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  • Michael R
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06 Dec 2018 16:15 #36068 by Michael R
Replied by Michael R on topic 810 1704A arrived at new home
unbelivable find in the book "cord complete" on page 136:
"This key envelope indicates that this Westchester sedan was painted a non standard color" Adrian Grieve....
and the picture shows Chassis 810 1704!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! stamped on the envelope. The colors name is hardly readable for me "claret mauven (or maroon) fagurrn"???? can anybody deciffer it better with the knowledge of amarican english color names that are period correct on other makes? and who is Adrian Grieve and why does he have my key envelope???
questions over questions
Michael
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  • Jonathan Richards
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14 Nov 2018 16:36 #35966 by Jonathan Richards
Replied by Jonathan Richards on topic 810 1704A arrived at new home
Hello , Michael ,
The interior photo image with rear corner interior lights aglow is spectacular. This shows the remarkable originality of your fine Westchester. Regarding the front parking lamp question the original headlamp configuration was a bulb illumination with a reflector , NOT A SEALED BEAM. There was also a lower CP bulb which served as the parking lamp. As I recall your car had been converted to sealed beam headlamps. Happy you have gotten the engine running. Your are really enjoying your custodianship of S#1704A. Best Regards.

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  • Michael R
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14 Nov 2018 16:12 #35965 by Michael R
Replied by Michael R on topic 810 1704A arrived at new home
ok, with the respect of having a rare part, I´ll not try to modify my generator-braket. If some day I find the correct one for me my old part might make someone happy.
under the plate is no paint...
but just to share some wonderfull moments, the engine is now running with the carb cleaned and the choke simply connected to the ignition.

almost everything works, even the interior lights did awake with some patience on the switch.

is it correct that there are no parking lights on the front?
delighted
Michael

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  • 1748 S
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06 Nov 2018 23:56 #35916 by 1748 S
Replied by 1748 S on topic 810 1704A arrived at new home
Might find the original color if you remove the serial number plate or the louver fence mounting bracket at the outside edge of the firewall on either side. My guess is this pink color is Palm Beach Tan. Please remember the names of the color really does not tell you what the color is unless you know what words to use. Cadet Grey Luminescence is a grey color.Cigarette Cream is a yellow color.
These engines had three really different types of generator mounting brackets. When a supercharger was installed the generator had to be moved towards the passenger side and slightly upwards. Do any google search for supercharged cord engines.I think you may have the bracket that fits a supercharged car engine. If you can post a picture from the passenger side looking towards the generator I can tell you what you have.
Gary Parsons

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  • Michael R
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06 Nov 2018 21:06 #35913 by Michael R
Replied by Michael R on topic 810 1704A arrived at new home
just a small update about the originallity: First I thought (and dealer and auctioneers said) 704 (or what ever they numbered it) had been an maroon car that once got a tan respray. But going into detail under the maroon paint there is another layer of tan paint. Under the hood where no sun was shining, the tan is nearly pink/peach but I think that this was not the original paint and results only from some of the maroon fades over / parts with the tan.



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  • Michael R
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28 Oct 2018 19:17 #35844 by Michael R
Replied by Michael R on topic 810 1704A arrived at new home
Absolutely correct, 1704 A is related to C90 600 even in the wonderful book „Cord Complete“ and the inspector that will do the Road legal tests liftet both eyebrows about the complications but will help me with the correction

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  • Tim Gilmartin
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28 Oct 2018 18:29 #35843 by Tim Gilmartin
Replied by Tim Gilmartin on topic 810 1704A arrived at new home
According to Ron Irwin, the Club’s Cord historian, this car should have serial number 1704A.
Central Manufacturing number C90 600.
Engine number FB870.
I suggest that you correct the information with the German authorities, or it will always be a mess.
Tim.

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  • Michael R
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27 Oct 2018 18:59 #35836 by Michael R
project creep? does that mean that some projects never end? 9 years ago I started a project on a 1973 IHC Scout II, thought it would be easy going: one owner, only nine years on the road, never been welded, first paint...very good starting points, but I was wrong, it wasn´t first paint, wide areas of the body where never been painted (complete rear fenders inner side, all hollow space) and the rust made a sieve / strainer out of the rear end and the project is now waiting for someone else with enough skills to finish it

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  • Tom_Parkinson
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27 Oct 2018 13:17 #35835 by Tom_Parkinson
Be aware of the risk of "project creep."

With brakes, two cylinders are better than one.

Editor-in-Chief Emeritus, The Hardtop News Magazine, the Journal of the Michiana Dunes Region, Lambda Car Club International

See pix of 1509A here: mbcurl.me/YCSE

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  • Michael R
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26 Oct 2018 20:31 #35834 by Michael R
yes, Mike, my decision, but not that easy... I own another icon in drivable condition but rough apearence, a Jensen FF, I often thought it deserves a better showing, but it does remove a lot of history to do that job

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  • mikespeed35
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26 Oct 2018 20:18 #35833 by mikespeed35
Once you start there is no stopping! Can only be your decision.
CORDiallyMike

Mike Huffman

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  • Michael R
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26 Oct 2018 20:12 - 26 Oct 2018 20:14 #35831 by Michael R
sadly the pic of the rocker panell doesn´t wan´t to be uploaded
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  • Michael R
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26 Oct 2018 20:01 - 26 Oct 2018 20:05 #35830 by Michael R
today I had some help to put it on a lift and now I know why Mr. Richards was so exited when reporting "BUY IT!" to me!

with the exeption of the batterie support there is only some unimportant surface rust, the body is unbelivable solid and shows no signes of ever been repaired. I have seen cars that are 70 years younger and much more rusty!
Now I have to think about what to do, preserve it in the condition with cracking paint and dented roof just to show that it is a true survivor, or do a soft restoration with painting the most damaged areas, or at last doing a pefekt shiny repaint in perhaps the original rich maroon or another nice color.

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  • Jonathan Richards
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21 Oct 2018 19:47 #35783 by Jonathan Richards
Replied by Jonathan Richards on topic 810 1704A arrived at new home / Stub Frame # Verification
Bravo, Michael Rohde , BRAVO!!!

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  • Michael R
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21 Oct 2018 19:23 #35782 by Michael R
Replied by Michael R on topic 810 1704A arrived at new home
without any doubt it is 704!

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  • Jonathan Richards
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21 Oct 2018 15:59 #35779 by Jonathan Richards
Replied by Jonathan Richards on topic 810 1704A arrived at new home
Michael Rohde of southern Germany, In a third and final comment on your Cord for this day I would suggest you contact the surviving son of Glenn Pray , Mr. Doug Pray at [email protected]. Doug continues to operate his late father's business in Broken Arrow , Oklahoma and will have more data of this car than anyone ( with the possible exception of the semi-retired right hand man of Glenn Pray , one Felix DeGeyter at [email protected] or Cell # Area 918/ 812-4070. Doug Pray's cell Phone is Area 918/810-5128. These two men are very helpful and well respected in the ACD Club. Keep us up to date as you develop the history and enjoy your wonderful Cord.
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  • Jonathan Richards
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21 Oct 2018 15:47 #35778 by Jonathan Richards
Replied by Jonathan Richards on topic 810 1704A arrived at new home
Michael, In further answer to your post # 35773 , yes replica Serial and Body plates are available for Cords Model 810/812. Other club members can advise from whom you can acquire them . I don't know off hand. The stampings on the plates presently on your car are far too regular and neat . The originals were irregular and not neat. I cannot say whether the CMC Body Number plate C90 600 is accurate for your car. There is no record of which I am aware which ties Car Serial # to Body number. The bodies were built at CMC and then taken to the assembly line and installed on a chassis. The earliest liosting by Ron Irwin in the MCL shows the owner in 1961 to have been E. Knapp of New Mexico and the body number is NOT shown. The Serial and Engine Nos. are shown as 1704A and FB870 at that time.

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  • Jonathan Richards
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21 Oct 2018 15:35 #35777 by Jonathan Richards
Replied by Jonathan Richards on topic 810 1704A arrived at new home
Hello Michael , I will first answer the question as to stub frame #. To locate/read this number remove the right front wheel to give easier access. Go to the outer face of the right stub frame side rail just aft of the RF shock absorber. You will see four rivet heads that form a rectangular area. At the lower aspect of this area the numbers will be seen , lightly stamped into the mild steel siderail. I believe you will find the numbers 704 , which is correct for Cord with assigned Serial # 1704A. The stub frame numbers are 1000 less than the car #. The numbers are about 1/2 inch in height. Check this out and let us know what you find.

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  • BARAC.BIERI
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21 Oct 2018 10:10 #35775 by BARAC.BIERI
Replied by BARAC.BIERI on topic 810 1704A arrived at new home
Congrats Michael....

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  • Michael R
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21 Oct 2018 09:27 #35774 by Michael R
Replied by Michael R on topic 810 1704A arrived at new home
try some pics


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  • Michael R
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21 Oct 2018 09:24 #35773 by Michael R
Replied by Michael R on topic 810 1704A arrived at new home
Dear Jack Richards, very interesting research! in fact it is titled (and now with toll/tax papers) 17944. The last "4" being an "A" was obvious to me but another mistake will make some trouble in telling our autorities to change it to the correct number. Is there an archiv that shows the connection of chassis and body number (hope C90 600 is correct). The data-plate looks rather new and obviously been changed at some point. Is it still available to stamp some with the correct number? Where is the place on the stub frame to inspect?

And yes, it was sold by worldwide auctioneers included in the Bobby Monical collection. Perhaps he was the man that did some technical overhauling to the car. It was described there and at motoexotica (Rodger Harman) as a beverly which it obviously isn´t. My transportation agency named it Winchester, and then Wenchester and in Germany there is one for sale as a Worchester (how spicy this might be ;-) )
The title is named for Glenn Pray revocable trust, Mr Monical perhaps did no registration but there was a 2012 Oklahoma licence plate in the car.
If only the cars could speak
Michael

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  • Jonathan Richards
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20 Oct 2018 20:57 #35768 by Jonathan Richards
Replied by Jonathan Richards on topic 810 1704A arrived at new home
Mr. Michael Rohde. I believe the Serial # of your Cord to be 1704A and not 1794A as stated in posts to this forum above. My research shows that known ownershhip history is 1961 / E. Knapp of New Mexico, then to Lyman Knapp and Glenn Pray , both of Oklahoma on dates unknown, then acquired by B. Monacle of Texas in 2011 (from Pray estate) and in 1914 auctioned at Austin, TX by Monacle when purchased by Roger Harman of St. Louis, Mo. from whom you bought the car. Check the stub-frame #. At my inspection it appeared to read 704 , which would be correct. Let us know, Thanks, Jack Richards.

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  • Jonathan Richards
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18 Oct 2018 23:06 #35743 by Jonathan Richards
Replied by Jonathan Richards on topic 810 1794A atrrived at new home
Congratulations on your Cord's arrival at it Deutchland home. I very much enjoyed making the " inspection " of the car here in St. Louis, MO,USA prior to your making the decision to purchase. You bought a beautiful largely original car for a fair price. Former owner Glenn Pray , RIP , would be pleased you are the new custodian. Please keep us posted on your progress, Jack Richards #1080 at Chesterfield, MO, USA.

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  • JIM.OBRIEN
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18 Oct 2018 02:04 #35726 by JIM.OBRIEN
Replied by JIM.OBRIEN on topic 810 1794A atrrived at new home
Hi Michael,
Congratulations on your "new" car!!! As you have questions you can search the forums, there are a lot good information on them. If you can't find the answer just ask. Most of all enjoy the project of bringing the car back to where it should be.
Jim

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  • Michael R
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17 Oct 2018 20:37 - 17 Oct 2018 20:39 #35725 by Michael R
810 1794A atrrived at new home was created by Michael R
Dear friends,

The 1936 Westchester 810 1794A is arrived at the new home in southern Germany. There is a lot of work to do (I will start some topics in the future) but it is an unbelivable solid example that transports a lot of evidence of the fine craftmanship of the 30ies!

I have to thank a lot to Jonathan Jack Richards who did a perfekt inspection before I purchased the car.

best regards
Michael


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