Fantasy Bidding VI: The Public Enemy's Auburn

I received an email about a week ago from a writer for "Sports Car Digest" who had the opportunity to examine the car. He made the point that "The Mayor of Hell" was released in 1933, so if this was indeed Cagney's car, it is probably a 1933 model rather than a 1934?

It's back:

cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Jimmy-Ca ... 41553db90b

Our 1934 1250 Auburn Salon Phaeton V-12 has a frame # of 1177H and an engine # of BB2641. It is an original non restored ACD Certified time capsule. I don't know if this helps the discussion on engine and frame numbers, but that is what I have and it is the real deal for sure. Thanks Craig

Here is a pic from my previous 1930 Auburn 8-125 which shows the original serial number plate and limosine body tag still attached to the floor boards.

i think two or perhaps three times since the certifcation based on the paperwork i saw. most of the owners were long term.

Just Curious...
Paperwork would indicate that the car was certified in 1987 (22+ yrs. ago). I would presume it was in it's current state of restoration at that time. Anyone have any idea how many times it has changed hands since '87?

It is my opinion that the body tag does not look original for these reasons.

1- The drive nails securing the tag have the wrong head.
2- The tag is embossed but appears to have too much depth, almost as if you could catch your finger nail on it.
3- The font is incorrect.

I base my knowledge on 1934-1936 Auburns. I don't post pix on the site, because it is too much of a pita. If anyone wants to see a pix of an original dataplate still mounted on the cowl send me your email addy.

The history of my salon cab can be traced back to 1953 when it was garaged in Ontario Canada. I don't believe it spent any time in California.

joel

i think you are right L- 58-13 and i agree the body tag looks original.

interesting that the body numbers are one digit off and the engine about 5 digits different. yet the serial numbers are 124 different.

if this was the next body number, i find it hard to believe yours was built in early 33 and this one ends of being a 34.

they both have rear mounted spares? joel, you think your rear mounted spare looks original?

maybe we won't be able to resolve this mystery after all. looks to me like either car could be a candidate to be the Cagney car?

brent

Brent,

There was a typo when I posted the information for my car. The engine number of mine is BB2068 and not BB1068 as I mistakenly typed. the body tag number of my Salon is L-58-12. If I read the photo of the Cagny car body plate, it looks like L-58-13. One digit higher.

Additionally, the S/N plate for the Cagny car is a reproduction plate.
The body number tag looks to be an original.

joel here is the comparison between the cagney car and your car.

cagney serial # 1187F
your car # 1063F

cagney engine # BB2063
your car # BB1068A

so the cagney car has a serial number 124 digits later than yours and an engine number 995 later. there are only 5 digits between your serial number and your engine number. there are 876 between the cagney car serial number and engine number.

i don't know if these auburns were numbered anything like packards. but if you have a packard v12 engine number and you have a packard 12 chassis original to the car...they never match exactly. but usually they are somewhat close. like 5 to 20 digits off.

seems like being 876 digits off in the cagney car....either the engine was changed at one point or the car was renumbered or something.

anyhow...the key thing to figure out here is when was the car built. there are more knowledgable men than me in this club that probably have the answer to that question. some of them may not use this forum.

according to my research, warner brothers who produced the film
Mayor of Hell indicate the release date of the film was June 24, 1933.

for warner brothers to have released the film in June of 1933, the filming
must have taken place late in 1932 or very early in 1933.

back in those days, the start to finish time of a film was pretty quick. maybe a few months at most.

seems to me that if these facts are correct, either one of two
things.......

the "cagney car" is an imposter....or for some unknown reason the car became a 1934 when in fact its a 1933. given the date of production of the film, i find it hard to believe that they used a 1934 car to produce a film in the late spring of 1933.

now i am told by those with a vested interest that this car was special ordered. not sure how they would know that? since it had a rear spare, which was unusual, it seems like a reasonable possibility. but if thats true, then the car wasn't sitting around someones car lot in 1933 and then got relabled in 1934. if you special order a car, you take delivery when its done, not a year later.

again those with a vested interest tell me the car was manufactured in February 1933. But how could a car completed at this time, if it was special ordered, end up being a 1934.

could one explanation be that it was not bought by Warner Bros., but perhaps loaned to them? and then relabled a 1934 when it was returned?

if Joel is correct and his car was manufactured in early 1933, then the numbers on this car would suggest it was perhaps a late 1933 or early 1934, which means it probably wasn't the cagney car.....

if we take this one step further....maybe Joel's car IS the cagney car. you say your car has a rear mount spare? have you ever been able to trace the ownership history? was the Mayor of Hell filmed in the Warner Bros studios? did your car reside once upon a time in California?

always more questions than answers in the ACD forum......

and here is the cowl tag. this one is pretty clear. model 1250 as you mention. serial # 1187F and engine # BB2063.

joel. here is the body plate looks like something - maybe 38 and then maybe 13.

it looks like an original body plate to me. what do you think. does yours look like this one?

relisted with Buy it Now for $299,900

Item # 250581112783

Bidding ended @ $167,100...Reserve not met.

The 33 and 34 salon twelves were essentially the exact same model.
1933 salon 12's were designated 12-165 models
1934 salon 12's were designated 12-1250 models

All 1934 12's were salon models.

Remember that in 1934, Auburn came out with a new model 850Y and a six cylinder model which were the fore runners of the 851/852 and 653/654 models.

Is there ANY difference between 1933 and 1934 Salon Twelves, other than the model year? Were the leftover 1933s retitled as 1934s all from the end of the production run, or just what were left in inventory?

Gents,

The numbers of my 12-165 Salon rear mount Cabriolet are as follows:

S/N 1063
engine BB 1068A

According to Paul Bryant, he believes my car was made in early 1933 based on his records of production of 12 cylinder cars.
The engine number of my car is 5 higher than the one car in question. I will leave all the conjecture to you.

Brent,

It's my understanding that the 1934 Twelves were unsold leftovers from 1933.

Also, all 1934 Twelves were Salon models.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Auburns aren't my forte.

members

can anyone help us figure out the truth about this car. i went to naples florida to see the car when a fellow named Barry owned it. prior to that it was in the Cars of the Stars museum and private ownership. the car was an older restoration but still decent. the paperwork he had was genuine ACD certification as far as i could tell. looked like others that i have seen.

barry consigned it to the world wide auburn auction in sept 2009 where it no saled. then barry put it on ebay. it didn't sell. so he then ran it through barrett jackson in palm beach in the fall and sold it for $253,000.

yesterday i saw it again on ebay where the new seller was saying that the ACD club had confirmed its originality and that "Brett" Gilland had seen the car in 1971 and traced its history to Warrner Bros and James Cagney.

like you mike, i sent a message asking for some proof. and i got back a message asking if i was a real buyer and saying that i didn't know anything about the car and for sure it was Cagneys. i should talk to "Brett" Gilliand they told me.

they also said the car was produced on special order. they say that Gilland proved it was the Cagney car by tracing back the order of production which concluded that the car was built in February 1933.

i know there is alot of more experienced people than me in the club.

so could someone please explain to me. if the car was a special order. presumably the person who placed the order did it before February 1933. And one would think that being a special order, it would be delivered when completed, sometime in February or March 1933.

if this is the case, why would the car today be a 1934? if it was produced in February 1933, wouldn't it be a 1933?

i understand that left over cars might be relabled to the next year. but with the spare tire on the rear, it is probably true that the car was special ordered. so this wasn't a "left" over car that wasn't sold. therefore i don't understand how it could be a 1934.

or perhaps the February 1933 production date is incorrect?

is there someone in the club that has a list of production dates for these cars and could help explain the situation.

also, is anyone aware of another auburn 12 cabriolet from 1933 or 1934 that had a rear mounted spare? as this seems to be the distinguishing item for the Cagney car.

one final question. i believe this car is the salon version. meaning no radiator mascot, a slightly different radiator trim, some lines across the headlights and some chrome trim along the fenders and the cowl venting (again you guys can corrrect me if i have the "salon" configuration incorrect).

was the salon verson of these cars also available in 1933 as well as 1934. i am pretty sure it was not available in 1932.

brent

Hi,

Well, if [i:1bbyly7e]I[/i:1bbyly7e] were considering spending a third to a half a million bucks on a car, I'd spring for the cost of a Motor Vehicle Bureau records check first...

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--Tom

I believe this car went through one of the recent Arizona auctions, I don't know the outcome of the auction or the high bid.

A couple of years ago I had many conversations with the owner of this car. I was dealing on a speedster he had, but the subject of this car came up more than a couple of times. I asked him if there was any hard evidence that the car was owned by James Cagney. He said NO.

mikespeed35 wrote: I was asked if I was a interested buyer and for my Name, address, email address, two phone numbers and drivers license no. before they would give me copies.
CORDially Mike

But no lie detector test? Hah, rank amateurs.

If any one has ever had a car certified you know that the previous ownership history is provided by the owner of the car, not the Certification team or the ACD Club. A owners statement does not make it true.
CORDially Mike

I ask the seller for a copy of the documents the ACD Club has proving James Cagney's ownership. I was asked if I was a interested buyer and for my Name, address, email address, two phone numbers and drivers license no. before they would give me copies.
CORDially Mike

This link to the dealer website allows you to open the photos of the documents to a size where the text can be read:

http://inventory.bestofshowautomotive.c ... VIN=131841

The Certification paperwork is shown. The list of known owners includes "Movie Studio/James Cagney" 1934-41, then "Privately Owned" until 1959. Not what I'd call bulletproof history. I'd like to see what other documentation, if any, is to be had on this car proving that it's the car from the film or Cagney's ownership.

Regarding the Duesenberg:

Tom, there's no evidence he did and no evidence he didn't. The car is Dietrich Convertible Sedan J-434 / 2449, which may or may not have had its current engine, J-581, installed at the time the photo was taken. Randy Ema told me he thinks J-581 was in the car at the time.

The building in the background is the Museum of Science &amp; Industry in Chicago.

Hi,

Here are photos of Cagney with a Duesenberg. Did he actually own it??--I have no way of knowing.

The photo caption from the Chicago Tribune web site says about the pic where Cagney is standing outside the car, "James Cagney poses with his 1931 Duesenberg convertible sedan." The other two pix come from

www.return2style.de/swingaring/amiacd.htm

which states affirmatively that Cagney owned this car.

So who knows for sure? Maybe the Cagney estate? California or New York registration records?? Could Cagney reach the pedals??? Hype becomes fact after enough years...

I wonder, if I claim today that my Cord was owned by the Majarajah of Bandysnoot, maybe in 50 years that will become "fact." Amusing thoughts. :rolleyes:








--Tom

.

Hi,

I looked further down the EBay ad and saw the attached photos of purported ACD Club certification. I say "purported" only because I have never seen an ACD Club certification document before. Members more experienced than I with certification may wish to comment further.

--Tom














.

Josh Malks wrote: The eBay blurb says "According to the Auburn-Cord-Duesenberg Club documents, the car was previously owned by Warner Brothers and actor James Cagney from 1934-1941." Now we're involved. Has anybody seen these documents?

"Auburn-Cord-Duesenberg documents." "Documents" is a shifty term. Do they mean Certification paperwork? I'm interested now...

The eBay blurb says "According to the Auburn-Cord-Duesenberg Club documents, the car was previously owned by Warner Brothers and actor James Cagney from 1934-1941." Now we're involved. Has anybody seen these documents?

Now on ebay again...Not sure how many times since last posting, or maybe it has a different owner now.
cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... escription

curt

you make the statement that cagney never came within one mile of the car and that the pictures on the movie set are not of this car.

they say in the write up that this is one of only four 1934 salon 1250 cabriolets and the only one with the rear tire. is this statement at least correct, even if the cagney stuff is not?

if there wre only four built, this would make the car pretty valuable even without the cagney stuff wouldn't it?

how many of these model from 1934 do we think are remaining?

so are you saying that there is another 34 salon cabriolet with rear tire that they don't know about?

or are you saying the cagney car was really a 33 cabriolet like joel's car with a rear spare.

i have looked at the studio photo and a photo of the car pretty close and they look the same to me. but you are more experienced than i.

so what do you see on the photo of the car and the studio photo that makes you sure that they are not the same car?

brent

The car was run a couple of times on eBay before it was signed up with Worldwide. Maybe he should put it througe Barrett Jackson, no reserve there!

Remember e-bay is world wide and the exchange rate is mighty good for some. There is always the buy afterwards with no comission.
CORDially Mike

They can always dream...

If it didn't sell at Worldwide, it will never sell on ebay at 1/2 a mil.

Mark

Now on Ebay...
cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1934-AUB ... dZViewItem

In a move best described as smarmy, WorldWide does not post top bids for cars that do not sell. So I don't have an exact number to tell who won. Going by what Joel said, at the moment it appears to be CURT SCHULZE, bidding $382,000.

Last time I use a WorldWide auction for one of these...

I believe the car was a no sale at a little over $300K

No results yet from WorldWide. If anyone hears before I do please let me know.

Chris Summers wrote: Do you know something about it we don't, Mike? I do the Fantasy Bidding half for fun and half so that real facts about the cars can come out for any possible bidders lounging around the Forum. If you know that it runs on only six cylinders or something, speak up.

Cagney had a habit of being photographed with ACD products he never owned...

Can't contribute anything about the car...we'll see you all at Auburn.

Mike

I know the guy that is selling it. The problem is there is no documentation proving that James Cagney came within 1 mile of the car. The pictures of Cagney in the Auburn on the movie set depict a different car. That being said it is a nice older restoration. Wouldn't it be every sellers dream to have John O &amp; Bill P get into a bidding war for your car. $382

Do you know something about it we don't, Mike? I do the Fantasy Bidding half for fun and half so that real facts about the cars can come out for any possible bidders lounging around the Forum. If you know that it runs on only six cylinders or something, speak up.

Cagney had a habit of being photographed with ACD products he never owned...

mikespeed35 wrote: He does, but this is Cagney's and then he will have two. Does anyone have just one Duesenberg? And the color fits his others.
CORDially Mike

The grey is close, but the contrasting color is wrong. I suspect he might have another reason for not bidding on this one.

My bid is $425,000

Steve D.

The two Duesenbergs should be interesting. Neither carries it's original body but one is a factory SJ chassis and the other certainly looks great with the Derham body on it.

Btw, the Auburn Cabriolet was found here in Massachusetts and the consignor was storing it about 2 miles from my house. My dad happened to see it a few months ago and mentioned it to me.

So if you have a large, open room of these cars, would you have a Salon of Salons?

Bill has a point. Remember, this is the first WorldWide auction in Auburn, an all-new locale, in an all-new building. They're certainly bringing the ammo--a Cord, an Auburn, and no less than two Duesenbergs, plus assorted top-end Packards and Rolls-Royces, a prototype Aston Martin, and a V-16 Cadillac. Their goal is supposedly to bring the great cars back to auction in Auburn and tap a market that's been sitting around waiting for them. Should be interesting.

mikespeed35 wrote: There is also a guy in Texas, with all the money, who has a twelve speedster salon that might like to add to his salon collection. If the two tangle I'd be looking at the top estimate and more.
CORDially Mike

You mean Tim Gilmartin's old Speedster? I should think a Speedster would be worth a lot more than a Cabriolet.

Who else is going to bid it up?

There is also a guy in Texas, with all the money, who has a twelve speedster salon that might like to add to his salon collection. If the two tangle I'd be looking at the top estimate and more.
CORDially Mike

My bid is $385,000.00

Remember this is AUBURN, not Scottsdale.